[SPOILERS!] Grimace and wetbandit hope to stay on their side of the DMZ

[Grimace]

Well, we lost the Zulu, and AI/OH took Rome (!!!). Dear god I hope I'm not near them.

Sumeria is looking better, as the Vultures are as good as axes as Praet counter on the offense (not much good on defense in a city...I think you'd need a musket to get decent odds on city defense from them), but better against non-melee units especially with a free aggressive promotion. Agr/Whe isn't a bad start for us, even if not ideal.

China is looking good too, weak UB or not. The Cho-Ko-Nu is probably the best defender against Praets before muskets (though further down the tech tree). And I know you said Agr/Min was an excellent start as well. Of course, we could be on opposites sides of the map, so we shouldn't choose based on that one person's civ, but damn praets scare me more in this mod than the base BTS version. We wouldn't get the free Agg promotion with the UU, though.

I think right now I'm leaning towards Sumeria, and I still want to grab Shaka. I think we should probably grab Shaka as our first choice (if he hasn't been taken), then figure out what civ we want after everyone else has chosen.

Your thoughts, WB?

[wetbandit]

It’s great to get synergy with your civ and traits, but it’s not always possible when considering the techs that enable the best start. Even though RtR reduces the effectiveness of slavery, I still feel that prioritizing BW is generally the optimal strategy. Any civ without two of the three techs we need delays BW, although access to The Wheel and roading may get some of those turns back with increased movement for the settler.

Here’s what we’re looking at:

Ideal Techs:

Agri/Hunt - 120 base beakers, 178 modified beakers
Persia - Immortal (+50% vs archers, gets defensive bonuses), Apothecary (+2health grocer) - great tech combo, UU alright, I guess, and UB mediocre at best. Absolute fastest way to BW.

Hunt/Mine - 110 base beakers, 163 modified beakers
Ethiopia - Oromo(musket with D2 immune first strikes), Stele (+1 culture, 25% culture) - just not moved at all by them
Germany - Kanone (80hammer cannon), Assembly Plant (available at Steam Power) - interesting, but units focused on later game, game might be decided by then
Khmer - Ballista Elephant (Now 7 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, targets Mtd first outside cities), Baray (+1 food aqueduct) - good UB if we land EXP. Probably a leader and similar to Ottomans, if we take Khmer, we signal to Gavagai/Whosit that we are taking an EXP leader, for whatever that means to them.
Russia - Cossack (cav with +50% vs mounted), Research Institute (University with free scientist) - similar to Germany, probably a better UU and UB here too

Agri/Mine - 110 base beakers, 163 modified beakers
China - Cho-ko-nu (crossbow with collateral, may name my first child Choko), Pavilion (theater with +25% culture) - the main benefit is the starting techs. UB stinks, UU is decent, but situational, and only really good if you can get to Machinery early and can attack someone (and win) with one movers. This might only be possible with a GE bulb, which would require IND to get an early forge. Very situational.
Korea - Hwacha (catapult +50% versus melee), Seowon (university with additional +10% to science) - Also Agri/Mine in RtR. Good techs, decent UU, late-ish UB. No civ game is complete without catapults and universities.

Other Contenders:

Agri/Wheel - 120 base beakers, 178 modified beakers
France - Musketeer (2 move musket), Salon (observatory with free specialist) - good UU, good techs
Egypt - War Chariot(5str chariot), Obelisk (monument with priest slots) - great UU, good starting techs
Ottoman - Janissary (musket with +25% vs melee,archer,mounted), Hammam (+2 happy aqueduct) - Another strong selection, especially if we grab EXP. Nice to have extra happy relatively early and for cheap.
Sumeria - Vulture (6str axe with +25% melee), Ziggurat (90h courthouse, unlocked at priesthood) - Considering ORG/AGG, ORG/EXP, or IMP/ORG also possible if we want to play for the early game.

Mining/Wheel - 110 base beakers, 163 modified beakers
Mali - Skirm (4str archer), Mint (+10% gold forge) - would have to push through 178 beakers of Agri and Hunting and oh god that’s a long time.

A benefit of starting with the wheel is the worker gets to road the grassland tile 1SE on its way to the corn (assuming we SIP, which looks to be very likely) and finish the road on the way back to pasture the pigs without losing any turns moving there. This may enable the first settler to settle the first city a turn or two earlier.

Agri/Myst - 110 base beakers, 163 modified beakers
Inca - Terrace (+1 culture granary), Quecha (+100% vs archery) - A total change from AGG, unless you want to play Tokugawa. Starting with Mysticism is a burden. Would need to consider EXP/PRO or IMP/PRO or ORG/PRO.

I’m not so sure that AGG will really be as valuable without coupling it with the Zulu. Taking it ahead of ORG/EXP/FIN might be giving away quite a bit.

[Commodore]

[wetbandit]

Sad Mongol is sad because their omission wasn't an oversight.

Yes, they are Hunting/The Wheel, similar to Agri/Wheel tech costs. Also synergize with AGG for cheap Gers and scary scary Keshiks. I would say these guys are scarier than Rome in a purely military sense. Taking Mongolia, especially with AGG, means that you are planning for and looking for an early war.

[Grimace]

Thanks for the analysis, that did help, although it hasn't drastically changed my mind. I think Sumeria or Ottoman (and I'm evenly split between them) for civ.

Leader, however, has changed slightly.
It seems like Hammurabi (ORG/AGG) would pair well with Sumeria.
What do you think of ol' GW (CHA/EXP) as the Ottomans? Almost as good as Agg for warring because of faster promotions, but we'd be able to grow our cities much larger if necessary from all the extra happy and health.
Or Shaka (AGG/EXP) of the Ottomans, which would still be pretty badass...and that 25% city maintenance reduction just seems so nice for REXing.

[wetbandit]

WWJCD

Still like Mehmed (EXP/ORG) for either civ, but going for a military trait, AGG is superior to CHM, especially with respect to the two civs here. So I'd rather have Shaka than GW. From what you listed, I think Hammy of Sumeria is not bad, and will be better than EXP/AGG Ottomans the longer the game goes. Consider that EXP gets the worker out 2 turns earlier, and hence farms the corn 2 turns earlier, its worth sandboxing just the start to see what the tradeoff is. I'll put together a sandbox when I get home.

Unfortunately, I had an unexpected trip to Fresno come up for tomorrow afternoon. I'll be back Sunday night, but will be limited to phone access for most of the weekend.

[Grimace]

Fresno? What is there to do in Fresno?

So that's something I've been trying to do, but been unsuccessful so far. I have virtually no experience with worldbuilder, and I could not, for the life of me, create a sandbox that had our exact start. I would really appreciate your help at least getting the sandbox built, then I have no trouble actually running the simulations.

Hmm. I think I'd really like to keep the Expansive trait, because you're right, getting that worker out faster is going to have a huge effect on the way the early game plays out. Aggressive I was pretty strongly wedded to, but now maybe not, especially with the loss of the Zullu.

Given the choice, would you rather have Mehmed of Sumeria, Mehmed of Ottoman, or Hammy of Sumeria?

[wetbandit]

Sandbox. Currently playing around with it, just with EXP Ottos so far. With EXP, settler finishes EOT26, BW finishes EOT29. With Agri/Wheel, BW isn't coming any quicker than that. If we end up such a civ, I recommend we research mining first, then hunting on the off chance we pop a hut that has BW. The worker wouldn't be able to get to the pigs until T17, which is right after hunting finishes. This is starting the Settler as soon as we grow to size 2. Size 3 gets the settler out on T30, but gives an additional warrior. Not worth it IMO.

Going to start messing around with a non-EXP start.

[wetbandit]

I completely agree with your stance on Fresno, however, I have some relatives there and so does the putative Mrs. WB.

Non-EXP gets the settler out EOT28 (predictably two turns later). 7 more coins from earlier turns working the unimproved corn. BW can be finished at EOT28 also if we micro for 1 more coin (trading a foodhammer) during the settler build. Worker can finish the mine 1S of the capital and move with the settler on T29, or get ready to chop something in the capital (probably another worker).

Not going to make the sandbox, but IMP can get the settler out EOT27 without EXP, and EOT25 with Joao.

EXP China, using an example of a civ that has two of Agri/Hunt/Mining, can get the settler out EOT25 with a chop. Not advocating an EXP China, but just giving an example for this, if you wanted to take EXP Khmer, for instance. I don't think this time improves significantly with IMP since the chop came in at 77/100 hammers for the settler.

EXP or IMP aren't that much faster with getting the initial settler out than non-EXP non-IMP traits. Obviously, EXP has the additional benefits of speeding future workers, of which we will be building quite a bit. I would lean towards Ottoman of the choices you lay out, but this makes other choices more viable (even EXP/AGG Mongolia if you want to get really obnoxious) than I had thought.

[wetbandit]

1. Dreylin/Ipecac/Ruff - Vikings
2. AdrianIer/Old Harry - Rome
3. Agent427/TBS - Zulu
4. Caledorn/Plako - Julius Caesar(ORG/IMP)
5. Elum/Mackoti - Augustus (IMP/IND)
6. Grimace/Wetbandit -
7. Whosit/Gavagai -
8. Whosit/Gavagai -
9. Grimace/Wetbandit -
10. Elum/Mackoti
11. Caledorn/Plako
12. Agent427/TBS
13. AdrianIer/Old Harry
14. Dreylin/Ipecac/Ruff

Two IMP leaders, 1 ORG, and 1 IND off the board. I would guess that the DIF Conglomerate will also take an ORG leader to for their trading posts. I would also guess that TBS/AI take an AGG for Zulu.

What do you think?