[SPOILERS] Insert witty title here.

[Zero_1627]

My availability note:
- CET timezone (so half a world away from You )
- Mon-Fri: usually ~10-16 I am available (eg. have computer on and check forum now and then)
- all days: small window at the evening, I can read and usually even write something but without much time available
any other time: not available barring luck

my timely answer to Your NA question today was blind luck - I checked forum two times entire day, had You posted half an hour later I'd only be answering now.

[Zero_1627]

As You haven't yet answered my 'general plan' question but kind of confirmed aiming for Stonehenge, let me make a sketch - to be improved, changed or flamed down, as You please .

Technology
have at start: Fishing, Agriculture
step 1: Hunting, Mysticism (Ivory tile seems very good and Hunting is cheap; Mysticism is required for Stonehenge and should be available quickly eg. to put a forest cut there)
step 2: Mining, Wheel->Pottery: so our workers can quickly improve something other than Ivory. Both Cottages and Mines seem important, and Mining is required for BW anyway.
step 2.5: Bronze Working (can't delay too much for safety reasons! Possibly even before Wheel->Pottery)
Step 3: religion, Animal Husbandry (I think landing early religion would be very nice, and nearby Cows are asking to be pastured)

alternate (more emphasis on early workers and defense): Hunting->Mining->Mysticism(should be quick enough)->BW-> Wheel->Pottery->step 3


Workers:
preferably build something useful while cutting (overall more effective than cut and then build). Ivory would be first due to techs available, but then a Mine or two and Cottages would be order of the day. OTOH Cottages would be better on river banks (and flood plains!!!), especially early, and those tiles are not forested - so maybe just a cut and once cuting is not necessary build Cottages in better locations?

build queue
1. Work Boat->Worker->Worker: with pop growth while building Work Boat. Delay in Worker availability should be small (extra food from fish ), and additional population on Fish tile would immensely increase early beaker output.
2. Stonehenge )))
3. Granary
4. start expansion, BUT WITH DEFENSES: Dog->Settler->Dog->Worker->Settler->Dog would be my preference. Then pause to assess situation and think it over!

Civics swap timing not thought about currently.

[LogicalTautology]

Sorry, but there's no way I'm going to research Mysticism before BW. That's just not an option. My plan is currently Hunting->Mining->BW, pending some trials with an early AH. I also don't think WB first is ever a very good start, so I haven't simmed it yet, but I'm about 95% sure I'm going Worker first.

[LogicalTautology]

Alright, I think I have a pretty solid micro plan after having simmed in a sandbox for a few hours. The numbers might be a little off since I did it by hand, but the turns for builds/growth are accurate.

[Zero_1627]

See, I already give You something to disagree with . No need to be sorry, I provide You food thought, not directions. Also, I'll disagree with You too, a lot, as I expect :P (what's the point of dedlurker who agrees to everything? ).

Mining->BW is certainly best for defense, AND gives early copper knowledge (might be good if it's near the city).
I put Hunting early due to that Ivory, I think improving it would be very nice (and cut forest effectively). I understand delaying it, but I'd consider putting it before AH at least - Workers will have something useful to do faster . As You saw, I put AH only after Pottery, in fact, to get Cottages going quicker.

Fish are 2/0/3 at start, not 2/0/2 - Financial.
I have checked Your table, WB first means You gain 21 beakers (and a few hammers of overflow) and lose 2 mines (10 worker turns) and everything else is equal by turn 22. As You don't actually use those mines (3/1/1 for 2/2/1 doesn't sem all that much of gain, especially building workers/settlers, and the other one is unused) this seems a fair trade.

My more serious doubt concerns T24 build queue - a Settler. You have BW for some time at this point, which probably means Zulu start their second Impi... If scouting allows precise targeting, You'll settle second city about exactly right for 2/3 Impis to pay visit. I am afraid they may like it here, and You have precisely no military unit empirewide at this point, and no Slavery enabled. Even with Slavery enabled, a single Dog would be doubtful vs a pair of Impis and sure loss vs 3. I restate: I consider new cities without at least 1 physical Dog present (in addition to possible whip) a suicide.
I'd vastly prefer putting Dog instead of Settler there (Capital security I am afraid of too...). So, from turn 24: Dog->Stonehenge->Dog->Settler, or gambit Stonehenge->Dog->(Settler/Dog) as per my original proposal - but not gambit on 2 cities and no military.

EDIT: Hunting first means Workers can immediately improve Ivory tile You'd actually use right away - so would accelerate everything else. Especially as You don't actually plan to _do_ anything with BW in this timeframe. If it's only an insurance policy, 5t delay should not matter. And even with no other changes to Your plan Mysticism is still in time for planned Stonehenge start.
So whether sticking to Your plan or modifying it, I consider Hunting first to be definitely superior.

WB first (and those 21 beakers) reduces delay to 2-3 turns. Camping Ivory means cutting forest immediately, too. Especially as those pastured Cows You use very little (too much food at the moment I assume), and Ivory gives more hammers and less food...
If You stick to BW ASAP, please do still consider Hunting before AH - due to prerequisite discount if nothing else.



btw, I put my email in tech thread to be included together with Yours. This should be irrelevant for now, but would avoid emergency setting up anything in case You actually require any turns played for You (I'll just require Your password then).

EDIT2: Is Your Ivory 2/2/1 at the start, or 2/2/0?... If it's 2/2/1, improvig it should give 2/2/3. But if 2/2/0, then improving to 2/2/1 (by my count) is indeed low priority (BUT clears forest adjanced to Cap, which may be worth it defensively), and 1/3/1 may be indeed better than 2/2/0. Suggestion of putting it before AH stays though

[LogicalTautology]

See, I already give You something to disagree with . No nMining->BW is certainly best for defense, AND gives early copper knowledge (might be good if it's near the city).
I put Hunting early due to that Ivory, I think improving it would be very nice (and cut forest effectively). I understand delaying it, but I'd consider putting it before AH at least - Workers will have something useful to do faster .

Actually, I originally did Hunting first, but that's what causes worker turns to be missed. The worker that needs work first is the one by the cows, not the elephants.

Fish are 2/0/3 at start, not 2/0/2 - Financial.
I have checked Your table, WB first means You gain 21 beakers (and a few hammers of overflow) and lose 2 mines (10 worker turns) and everything else is equal by turn 22. As You don't actually use those mines (3/1/1 for 2/2/1 doesn't sem all that much of gain, especially building workers/settlers, and the other one is unused) this seems a fair trade.

Perhaps my table is a little unclear, but I very much do use the mines, especially when building Stonehenge. Besides, 21 beakers is worth just about nothing, while 2 Mines is 10 turns of worker labour + higher chance of premined Copper. If that's the trade-off to be made, I'm going with the Mines every time.

My more serious doubt concerns T24 build queue - a Settler. You have BW for some time at this point, which probably means Zulu start their second Impi... If scouting allows precise targeting, You'll settle second city about exactly right for 2/3 Impis to pay visit. I am afraid they may like it here, and You have precisely no military unit empirewide at this point, and no Slavery enabled. Even with Slavery enabled, a single Dog would be doubtful vs a pair of Impis and sure loss vs 3. I restate: I consider new cities without at least 1 physical Dog present (in addition to possible whip) a suicide.
I'd vastly prefer putting Dog instead of Settler there (Capital security I am afraid of too...). So, from turn 24: Dog->Stonehenge->Dog->Settler, or gambit Stonehenge->Dog->(Settler/Dog) as per my original proposal - but not gambit on 2 cities and no military.

There's no chance the Zulu get two Impi out by the time my settler sets out. Don't forget that I'm completely beelining BW, building Workers and Settlers (faster than other builds due to Food production), and he needs to connect Copper before he can build any Impi. Besides, I'm easily willing to risk my game on the risk that he's not both a) right beside me; b) rushes 2-3 Impi before a second Worker and a Settler. The first is unlikely to due luck, the second would be a losing play on his part even if it succeeds.

EDIT: Hunting first means Workers can immediately improve Ivory tile You'd actually use right away - so would accelerate everything else. Especially as You don't actually plan to _do_ anything with BW in this timeframe. If it's only an insurance policy, 5t delay should not matter. And even with no other changes to Your plan Mysticism is still in time for planned Stonehenge start.
So whether sticking to Your plan or modifying it, I consider Hunting first to be definitely superior.

Again, I definitely do use BW right away; I start chopping the turn after it comes in.

WB first (and those 21 beakers) reduces delay to 2-3 turns. Camping Ivory means cutting forest immediately, too. Especially as those pastured Cows You use very little (too much food at the moment I assume), and Ivory gives more hammers and less food...
If You stick to BW ASAP, please do still consider Hunting before AH - due to prerequisite discount if nothing else.

Sorry, but unless you have a concrete plan that is clearly better, I'm going to stick with this especially as the game has started and I don't have time for more simming. I also have no plans to chop the Elephants forest, so I'm not sure what you mean by "Camping Ivory means cutting forest immediately, too."

[Zero_1627]

>There's no chance the Zulu get two Impi out by the time my settler sets out.
I't not the time he sets out I'm afraid, more the time shortly (or even not so shortly) after he settles down.

>b) rushes 2-3 Impi before a second Worker and a Settler
If he plans very early rush (and it seems so), I'm sure he'll not build Settler (unless necessary for Copper, but that throws 'very early' part out of the window anyway - I hope that Your Copper location would be an indication in this regard!). 2 Workers he can build easily, and in fact they're neecessary for quick Copper connection.

>Again, I definitely do use BW right away; I start chopping the turn after it comes in.
Aw, forgot it's necessary for chopping! Rust, rust

>Camping Ivory means cutting forest immediately, too.
I was somehow sure You can't build Camp in forest. More rust... which does suggest You should take my prpoposals with more than a few grains of salt (((

[Zero_1627]

>I very much do use the mines, especially when building Stonehenge
Sorry, I was unclear. I think 2/2/1 (as I thought) Ivory is not inferior to 1/3/1 Mine during Worker/Settler build, so You may stick to Ivory as well

If You can camp on the forest, then Camped Ivory would be 2/3/1? Then it's actually slightly superior to mine. Minus a very minor chance to find something valuable when placing mine. Minus chance that Copper is actually on the hill just near the capital (I do not expect it to be, but it may).

[Zero_1627]

Also... It's known that explaining things to others helps clear Your own thoughts. So I hope You'll be ahead just by pointing out why doing against my proposals is better

[Zero_1627]

I have done 'paper' sim of my WB first opening (will post it later today hopefully so You may look for errors. I assumed Your preferences stay (eg. Settler ASAP). I assumed unimproved Ivory is worth 2/2/0.

If I haven't made any mistakes, results are:
Settlers completes EoT 28.
Techs done: Hunting->Mining->BW->Mysticism (which completes EoT 28 too). I assumed Mining gives prerequisite bonus to BW.
Builds: WB->Worker->Worker->Settler (0 overflow remaining)
City size: 2 (working improved fish 5/0/3 and ivory 2/3/1)
Improvements complete: Ivory only; 2 cuts that went to Settler.
Improvements started: 1t to grass hill mine, 1t to plains hill mine+cut (of course workers could have moved elsewhere)
Capital yield from fields: 10/4/5

Haven't checked forested Elephants in game though. If it's as I assumed 2/2/0->2/3/1, then Your tech schedule is overly accelerated during early turns (until You switch to working mine) - which spells trouble to quick cuts (BW delayed).
If OTOH Elephants are 2/2/1->2/3/3 (You're correct), this seriously accelerates my tech schedule (+36 base beakers towards AH EoT28 - as I have Hunting (prerequisite to AH), it's probably more).

EDIT: promised screenshot attached. Not as readable as Yours I'm afraid, but if someting is unclear please do ask. I included prices of everything, so if I made any error in assumptions it should be easily catchable. Hunting price checked on Small map in game, every other tech assumed to have the same multiplier from CivFanatics Center encyclopaedia base cost.