[Spoilers] It's time to be casual again

[AdrienIer]

Your GE plan is really clever. I suggest we rush MC (before writing ?) and do that.

Small correction : if we don't find stone nearby we should do that. We can't research MC before sailing (for whale) pottery and AH. If we get all these techs and haven't found a good stone site we tech MC before writing

[Mardoc]

Colossus is anti-synergetic with pyramids because if you're using specialists you're not using coast and vice versa

Yes...ish. A large part of the benefit of Mids is the extra happiness early game, and it takes some doing to get specialist slots while coast is relatively easy. Even if we push hard for libraries everywhere, we'll probably be working some coastline no matter what.

Also: if we're researching Metal Casting anyway, and building a forge anyway, it's probably worth trying for Colossus just for denial or failgold. Most of the cost of Colossus is the tech and forge, really. I assume we'll actually hook up copper promptly this game, which makes failgold a decent investment.

Don't have a solid feel for what tech path makes sense to get toward the wonders fast but not prevent REX. Need to spend some time staring at the tech tree and tech costs.

Do agree that Pottery and AH are vital, and Sailing is probably quite important, being the only happy resources we've seen so far (and wouldn't be surprised if we end up needing a bunch of lighthouses too). I guess the next 30 turns will be the same no matter if we're trying for wonders or not: scout and REX and get worker techs. The bigger our civ is, the more those wonders help and the smaller fraction of our production they cost, after all.

If we're getting Sailing/Masonry anyway, Great Lighthouse is worth considering too. Although I guess trying for all three wonders is quite greedy and likely to leave us under expanded...even with Imp.

[AdrienIer]

I just played two turns in a row. This pig in the jungle is annoying.




Question is : next turn should the scout go NE-SE or E-SE ?

Colossus is anti-synergetic with pyramids because if you're using specialists you're not using coast and vice versa

Yes...ish. A large part of the benefit of Mids is the extra happiness early game, and it takes some doing to get specialist slots while coast is relatively easy. Even if we push hard for libraries everywhere, we'll probably be working some coastline no matter what.

Also: if we're researching Metal Casting anyway, and building a forge anyway, it's probably worth trying for Colossus just for denial or failgold. Most of the cost of Colossus is the tech and forge, really. I assume we'll actually hook up copper promptly this game, which makes failgold a decent investment.

Don't have a solid feel for what tech path makes sense to get toward the wonders fast but not prevent REX. Need to spend some time staring at the tech tree and tech costs.

Do agree that Pottery and AH are vital, and Sailing is probably quite important, being the only happy resources we've seen so far (and wouldn't be surprised if we end up needing a bunch of lighthouses too). I guess the next 30 turns will be the same no matter if we're trying for wonders or not: scout and REX and get worker techs. The bigger our civ is, the more those wonders help and the smaller fraction of our production they cost, after all.

If we're getting Sailing/Masonry anyway, Great Lighthouse is worth considering too. Although I guess trying for all three wonders is quite greedy and likely to leave us under expanded...even with Imp.

You may be right about the Colossus's denial value+potential failgold+low hammer price anyway once we have a forge and copper.

My optimal early wonder combination would be great lighthouse + mids but they're too expensive for that. What I could see on the other side is a play for the MoM after the mids if we can get the mids without the GE. Then we can try for a GE (with an engineer in the mids' city for 12 GE GPP per turn) and use it on MoM. Then we get a ton of 12t GAs thanks to our gazillion great people. If we have to use a GE on the mids then I guess the Mausoleum can't be a priority because after delaying currency for after MC we'll be struggling economically, and waiting for currency to tech calendar and make a try for the MoM is rather late.

[Mardoc]

I just played two turns in a row. This pig in the jungle is annoying.

Am I reading it right, that the pig has a fort on it and thus no actual jungle? Just jungle all around?

Grass pig is a nice tile, better than dry rice. Maybe equivalent to dry rice + plains hill city? Need to figure out how to use it! Nothing immediately comes to mind, though.

Question is : next turn should the scout go NE-SE or E-SE ?

I'd go NE-SE. Want to know how best to use the pig.

-------

I think I'm missing a step or two in your chain of reasoning about the MoM. I agree it would be a great wonder to have. Especially as Phi, and double-especially if we get the Mids. But what does that have to do with the question of Great Engineering the Mids?

[AdrienIer]

Yes the pigs aren't in the jungle. But they're not in a great spot with those jungle around.

I should be clearer about the MoM. I think our main problem from now on will be our tech rate. Techs cost a lot, and we're thinking about making a detour for MC before currency. Calendar is not going to be a priority, especially if there is a lot of jungle and IW becomes important. So getting the MoM is not only a hammer problem but also a can-we-get-calendar-before-it's-too-late problem, or more precisely a should-we-get-calendar-before-it's-too-late problem.
If we have used a GE on the mids it means that getting a GE for the MoM is not a good idea, because getting another GE would most likely take 20t. That means we have to actually build it, which means we'll be super late to build it.


On an other subject : I feel super dumb right now. Being phi aztecs is very anti-synergetic because the SA allows you to whip far more effectively, making slavery worthwhile for a long time, while phi is asking for caste system early. Phi also asks for wonders like MoM or pyramids while beelining SAs involves another strategy completely : rush the oracle ASAP, take CoL and then whip yourself blissfully.
I should have seen that earlier...
So... I propose we try to abuse phi, and just use SAs as a cheap courthouse that allows you to draft more effectively.

[Mardoc]

I should be clearer about the MoM. I think our main problem from now on will be our tech rate. Techs cost a lot, and we're thinking about making a detour for MC before currency. Calendar is not going to be a priority, especially if there is a lot of jungle and IW becomes important. So getting the MoM is not only a hammer problem but also a can-we-get-calendar-before-it's-too-late problem, or more precisely a should-we-get-calendar-before-it's-too-late problem.

Ah, I get it now. Personally...I think it depends an awful lot on how our wonder chasing goes. The whole point of getting Mids and/or Colossus and/or GLH is to supercharge our economy in a non-conventional manner. If we succeed, we don't need Currency nearly as badly. Not that it's ever useless - but if we have 6 beaker specialists and boosted coast or failgold, we can go without it a while longer.

If we have used a GE on the mids it means that getting a GE for the MoM is not a good idea, because getting another GE would most likely take 20t. That means we have to actually build it, which means we'll be super late to build it.

Um...surely it'll take 20 turns to research all the way up to Calendar? Writing, Math, Calendar, none of which are super cheap? My bigger concern, honestly, is that we might need some military by then. Both tech and units. So I'm thinking MoM is strictly wait and see at the moment. Depends on too much, including too much that isn't under our control.

On an other subject : I feel super dumb right now. Being phi aztecs is very anti-synergetic because the SA allows you to whip far more effectively, making slavery worthwhile for a long time, while phi is asking for caste system early. Phi also asks for wonders like MoM or pyramids while beelining SAs involves another strategy completely : rush the oracle ASAP, take CoL and then whip yourself blissfully.

Well, yeah, somewhat. Although it's not like we had a choice by the time we were Phi. Phi only really cares about one city, or a handful - that's just about all the cities you can get great people from.

So... I propose we try to abuse phi, and just use SAs as a cheap courthouse that allows you to draft more effectively.

As a general principle, I can agree. The cheapness of the SA is still a significant bonus. Caste is already pretty strong in RtR, so we'll likely want to go that route sooner or later anyway.

I don't like thinking of strategies as all or nothing, though. Imp *does* synergize well with cheap courthouses, so that's still value. Once we have the SA built out, we may find it worthwhile to delay switching to Caste for a little while. Or dipping into Slavery in Golden Ages.

Does it really work to help with draft anger? That's usually the biggest limitation on really pushing the draft to the limit, cities can grow faster than you can afford the happiness hit. I'm not sure that's enough to make maces worth drafting, but it probably justifies drafting everything from muskets onward.

[AdrienIer]

Yeah of course if we play a great game and can afford another detour to calendar MoM is worth it. Let's say that I'm simply not optimistic about it.

I may seem to be talking in absolutes, and all or nothing strategies, but what I mean is more that our trait and civ would like to send us in opposite directions.

SAs reducing the draft anger may need testing, I'm not 100% sure on that.

[AdrienIer]

Marble instead of stone. That could be bad news, if everyone has one of stone or marble but not both. If so the most efficient would be to GE the mids and use the marble for MoM. But you know what, I'll stop planning so far ahead : we should focus on the first settler for now.




Going 2NE next turn before coming back south.

[Mardoc]

First thought on how to use the pig is a city SE of it. Pig plus shared capital food is likely enough to get a city started; once we get it going build a barracks or monument to grab the hills and marble.

Downside: 1 off the coast, lose both coast tiles and ability to use the city for navy.

On the other hand, four food sources possibly - this could be a good GPP pump eventually.

[AdrienIer]

Jungled lake is only 1/0/2...




Border pop didn't reveal much.




I'm still unsure about the pig situation. It feels wrong to stay 1 off coast but you make a compelling argument for it.