[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Miguelito]

War! Mjmd saw our galleons approaching and declared. Then asked for peace. Nope, we're moving in to punish him:


So, is quality > quantity?

Sadly, most likely we'll never know. I offered him peace back. Several cities in his former territory are unhappy for wanting to joing their motherland (that includes one that we founded ourselves ). Wellerman has 4 red faces, despite 3 religions! I just realized that the industrial/modern age resource obsolescences are all on market resources, so we've lost 6 happy faces recently. I can't really justify building temples over Research, and even that would not render the cities happy.
Now my original idea was to eliminate Mjmd with this attack to get rid of We Want to Join our Motherland altogether, and for that it would have been acceptable to stomach some red faces for a few turns. But that required civac taking out Mjmd's 3 jungle island cities, but something seems to have gone wrong there. They made peace, and I saw a wounded musket in one of the cities, together with a healthy CB. So civac probably lost more of the just 8 units which fit in his transports than he liked, and called off the invasion. Now, if we take Mjmd's mini island and he then refuses to give peace we'll have our cities unhappy for a long time.
If he does not take peace and only sends it back for next turn, when we are in position to attack him, I might feel just too tempted to see how a CR3 tanke will do assaulting that island.

News from the internet race: Piccadilly started another GA (I think that should be his 3rd? or 4th? - 3rd it seems, he ran a pretty late 1st GA around t150). He changed to caste/pacifism - interesting, is he planning for yet another GA? Of course that shortens his ETA for the Internet. I think it should have 6 turns left to go. That would make it a coinflip for us . It's also possible that he is faster somehow. I might run espionage on the order of 1k next turn to get city investigation.

At 100%, our demos are still dominant despite his GA:


So yeah...

That mfg has been telling for a while, but that looks very good now. I've lost track of the game so I don't really know the diplomatic situation but you certainly look to be the front runner.

It's a nice picture for now. But remember that we're several techs behind. If he can bag Internet he's not only denying it from us, but will also get at least Biology, possibly also Flight (along with a bunch of stuff that he doesn't need). From there it will be pretty hard for us to catch up. But I'll try, sure enough, and maybe we still are in the running for Internet.

Btw also nice that we are still holding first CY. We are up against Amica, who has Biology and the Cereal Mills corporation, for which we are even selling him all our grains. Of course with Kremlin he's whipping a ton (top power is his and it's increasing massively every turn). And his CY has been spiking now, so we'll lose the lead pretty soon.

[Rusten]

If it comes to it don't forget that you can stop a spaceship by razing the capital. Obviously very hard to do across continents.

[Miguelito]

If it comes to it don't forget that you can stop a spaceship by razing the capital. Obviously very hard to do across continents.

I am aware of that, but not very hopeful. Here's the layout:


You can spot our westernmost ports on the far right of the picture. The movement command is for a destroyer (8m), transports (5m) would take longer. We'd need to build that fleet yet. We also have no way of getting commandos. Also moving the capital after launch has not been banned either, although arguably the cap is in a perfect spot for him already.


More gloom:


Picc's IW city during the caste GA is pretty amazing, competitive with ours (outside GA, but we've spent our powder). If he is building Internet there I fear he can get it down to a 6 turn build, which would not even leave us the coinflip. Mind the first turn of him building it was before the GA, but by my estimate he would need to average 89 base hammers per turn during the GA. I counted 86 that the city is making (AP temple and Mining Inc accounted for). With some overflow and paving over just some farms (or if he must, towns) it should be easy enough for him. Those workers are teams of 3. Shaving off another turn (from 4 to 3) at Angola is just impossible. It would need to make 119 base hammers, but even with Mining contributing 29 we still remain almost 20 below that.
Getting city investigation was too expensive (~1700 EP), but we build it either way. With +100% from copper it is decent for failgold in any case. Picc is however 2-3 turns ahead of us in the Fusion race which is probably too much as well. I suspect with Fusion a 4th GA of his is on the cards, and then probably it's game. But we'll play it out, sure.

Charriu is still having fun as well:


He offered us copper for stone and marble, which I'm fine  with. Although the copr culture may get nasty yet.

We move to chop the forests that Ramk left standing for us graciously:



Not to say there is no progress:

[Miguelito]

Whatever happens yet in the next few turns, I am pretty sure this is the most hammers any city on this map has produced yet in a single turn.



And it may remain the record, unless maybe some overflow shenanigans with SS parts achieve more.
You see I also prepared for the towns to be paved over, but that was ultimately unnecessary thankfully (there's an academy in that city!). 3 turning the project would require +28 base hammers, and that is just not achievable.
I fear Piccadilly will beat us to both the Internet and Fusion by 1-2 turns each, and he also got a prophet already with a lot of GA turns remaining. Maybe it was an error not to go for a 4th GA, but I don't see how we would have done it even with the Fusion GE.

[Miguelito]

I'm fighting windmills.

Somehow Amicalola seems to have accepted a "Stop trading with Miguelito" offer. I opened the turn to his OB offer, fine, but also all our metal trades were gone, losing us 5 hpt in every Mining city. That also screwed up the Internet plan, dropping it to 4 turns left.

Amica also offered this:


Great, but in 25 turns this game is over, none ofus has an effective attack vector, and also you just handed him the Internet.

.... well no, he didn't. Don was online, and I managed to cut some out of the usual deals:


Two of those are giving him a Mining resource and receiving two in exchange.

I then workshopped a watermill and a deer camp to get Angola back on track:


But at the same time, Picc is also taking radical measures, to great effect (compare with the shot from last report):


I'm pretty sure if he does this it is to get the eta down to 2 turns. So I probably shouldn't be mad at Amica.

Then I noticed on the scoreboard (see first image in this report) that Picc still needs 1 turn for Fiber Optics - great I think, he was lacking Fission as well, and by setting everything to Research builds and changing every specialist to a scientist I can just 3-turn Fusion as well for the coinflip. Just need ~1400 gold credit, that should be doable.
Proudly I claim the first >10k GNP of this game:


oops.

Except that only after sending out the credit requests it occured to me to look at F4 techs (actually to check his gold stash), and of course he took Fission last turn, and he very clearly can 1 turn Fusion next turn.  . I could not quite bring myself to abandon the Research builds, for the faint hope that somehow it works out differently (and Research builds are good anyways, and I actually had to change no more than maybe 20 cities to it), but it's a pretty certain loss.

Charge!

[Miguelito]

We'd have needed one more turn.

Looks like Amica gave him credit to get there?


ftr, Amica last turn offered us mutual war against Picc in 25 turns, and also mutually stopped deals with Picc a few turns ago (but proceeded to reopen borders as you see). That also means that this credit is recent. (not complaining, we got credit from civac when I asked for it, just trying to make sense of Amica's intentions here)

Piccadilly birthed a prophet and a merchant already during the GA. Should be trivial to get a scientist out for his 4th. I am wondering how big of a mistake I made in foregoing the 4 GP GA. We are not getting it because during the 3 GP GA we ran emancipation/OR, and burned a merchant on a mission. The next GP is jsut nowcoming out in Paraná. Also for a long time we have not been getting out GP in cities outside the NE really. But here comes back the story of this game, we just had too little pop to do otherwise most of the time. Of course we could have waited with the 3GP GA - right now we'd probably be able to secure the next one. What that GA did though was industrialization including massive Mining Inc spread, and it brought us within spitting distance of winning Fusion and Internet. Mind Picc researched Superconductors before  Fusion, so we are still substantially behind.

To recap, here's what our GAs did:

1. got into civics, boost to guilds
   
2. (Taj) Nationalism, drafted a lot because civac was threatening with galleons. We libbed Economics for the merchant and got into FM.
   
3. I don't quite remember ? Limped to Railroad for Mining mostly. Infrastructure buildup after civac was finally showing signs of relaxation. Edit: we took emancipation/US, that was pretty huge actually
   
4. Industrialization, infrastructure, Mining Inc spread. The stated goal was to play for Redentor but Frozen cut that short fast with his engineer. In the end we haven't needed it. We also got into beneficial civics with FS and FR over Nat and theo.
   

So the last two were mixed successes. I would argue that they helped us a lot to get in shape, and right now our current numbers are competitive with Picc in his GA - but he is just significantly ahead already, and he may spend the better part until launching his spaceship in GAs, so being competitive is not nearly enough.

Waiting for the turn roll to confirm losing the Internet as well . Then there are 3 options:

1. tech and build the SS to the best of our ability. We are likely to lose significantly in research (with Internet Picc gets at least Bio and Flight for free on top ofhis current lead, probably more even), and I would be surprised if our hammer edge could make up for it. I think he has the necessary micro skills to finish the SS 1 or 2 turns after his last tech.
   
2. 1. but with nukes, randomly dropping them on Picc's best cities. Our corporation hammers are much more resilient to nuclear warfare because they don't depend on population. So we should be able to build more nukes than him. Otoh we'd lose thousands of beakers for not building research, and I don't know if the damage we can cause him can be worth that. Meanwhile he has a beaker corporation and a uber shrine which should help him keep research up. I have not started Manhattan Project yet. Of course the earlier we start on this path the greater the effect. I need to sim a bit what a nuke does with a sz 20 city with a BFC full of towns. Remember, the mod has not nerfed them, just tripled the cost. This might be Amica's or Frozen's  best path to victory .
   
3. Stop all Research builds and instead convert our hammer edge (near twice his GA MfG) into a fleet, an army, an air force, and nukes. I have already shown you the awful logistics. Even if we can make landfall we might be able to take (raze actually) a few cities in Cornflakes' former core, but will never be able to reach his. Admittedly that at least includes his IW. But I fear there is just not time enough to even build everything that's needed and ship it over. I am also not sure if I'd be willing to spend the necessary time.
   

Hm, I sort of like 2? Need to take a closer look.

[Rusten]

Disclaimer: My lategames have always been on smaller maps with less people so I won't pretend to be able to offer perfect advice.

If Piccadilly is just building research towards a spaceship you should be able to eliminate him. You have a massive production advantage. The worst thing you can do, which I read is what's been happening for a while is to not commit either way. Would be a shame if you lose this from such a good position. Mobility can get pretty nuts with late game units such as paratroopers and other air units, but you're going to have to spend a lot of (IRL) time doing it.

Do you think you will be 1st to space with the internet? If no, then the route forwards is pretty easy. IMO your advantage (especially over Piccadilly) is too great to waste it on something uncertain. He's been ignoring units for a while. From what you're been writing it looks like a clear '3' (at least if you miss the internet), but I don't really have a great overview of the game at the moment.

[Miguelito]

The game is offline right now, but I had a quick look inside yesterday and Picc got the Internet as predicted. Beaten to both Fusion and Internet by a turn . That means he is now ahead of us on the order of 30k beakers, and with his next GA incoming we are not going to catch up or even come close.
Rusten, yes I was pretty sure to be first with Internet, but with him having it it's hopeless, so we may as well launch the fireworks.

So war it will be. I have little hopes to make it in time but we'll see how far we can get. When I can log in I'll try to get an estimate on how many turns he has left to launching. Maybe Amica is still willing to join in, although I fear 25 turns is really too far out.

Rather random thoughts:
Piccadilly has a somewhat decent fleet, so we'll need to build some ships. We also need a bunch of transports. He also got Flight from the Internet and can start to build an airforce. We need to deal with that. Carriers?
We'll possibly fight at tech disadvantage. I particularly dread Modern Armor and Jetfighters.
Next tech Flight for airforce and airports because I feel airlifting will be important. Then Robotics for Mech Inf and Missile Cruisers (because they're fast), then go for Composites.
I don't think I'll build Manhattan project just yet,
I wish we had theocracy now. I still think it was not the worst decision to try for the research push, we almost made it. But now it hurts not to have access to Nav1 and 2 promo units. It was also probably silly to try for Fusion; I was just dismissive of the idea of going to war in earnest (and I still think it's a pipedream), but we could have started the new power buildup a bit earlier.

One big quesiton is what civac will do, because in order to do this we need to completely expose ourselves to him. I will try to send diplo to give him the chance to signal his neutrality. MAybe he sees it as abstaining from kingmaking. It might also be his last lowball chance of getting a shot at winning.

Where does the logistical difficulty come from? (I'm a civ 6 player who's just starting with civ 4) Is it the time to travel giving him extra time to build a counter-army? Otherwise I thought that since you can move units in a stack of doom in civ4 you can ignore the border cities and go directly for the capital, and if he attacks you on the way it's even better because the bonuses would be more favourable?

You asked before which unit to name after me but I won't let you off that easily. I want his capital

PS. The naming is a joke but it would indeed be amazing to see a military campaign that takes out the spaceship if that's your best course of action.

The logisitical difficulty is basically the long distance, yes. We need like 5 turns to arrive on his coast, where he can expect us with bombers and all of his army from his rail network. He can also build artillery now, ugh (yes, Internet ). Meanwhile we need a city for air support and reinforcements. Might be wise to take a settler with us, so we can plant on an island and buy an airport so we can fly in unlimited units. Otherwise you need a chain of transport ships, and probably a lot (although we could hope that civac allows us to use his ports)
I'll name the first city that we keep from him in your honour. If we take the cap I'll give that to you on top, although it would very very likely just burn.

[Miguelito]

So, after the Internet, for a spaceship Piccadilly still needs:

1. Rocketry 1turned turn 225 while still making 363 gold, and with whatever overflow he had from Fusion . 
   
2. Satellites
   
3. Composites
   
4. Ecology
   
5. Genetics
   
6. Robotics
   
7. Medicine
   

I don't think it will take him more than ten turns (remember, he is only halfway through his GA and has another one in the pipeline). Maybe less. I'm not quite sure he can finish the spaceship on the turn after finishing research, maybe it will take him 2 or 3. But the game may have less than 20 turns remaining. MAybe if we come knocking he has to divert some production, but actually by the time we're there he might be launching already. After he finishes researching he can also spend his money freely on units.



The screenshot didn't take, but Amica offered war with Picc in 20 turns, with Uranium on our side and Aluminium on his (he doesn't have Fission).

Apparently he wants to take over Tarkeel first:




68 cities now and counting (overtook us). If we actually manage something against Picc then this might get dangerous yet.



If I am correct above 20 turns anyway is too late, anyways. I reoffered this:




Of course I'll happily nuke Picc's cap if Amica has a fleet incoming. However Picc might as well get  SDI (for later reference, if this is successful, we very much need SDI )



I also asked for civac's neutrality:






Similar offers went out to Charriu and Lazteuq (who already responded with fish/fish). I also proposed joint war against Piccadilly in 12 turns to Ichabod. It would make a lot of sense for him, but I fear he just doesn't care about the game very much. I was hesitant to make the same offer to Frozen, because he might see himself more as Picc's buddy and warn him instead. I will offer something however once we're closer to execution.



t225 (last) build list:




This is going to become more orange. Battleships will queue upgrade to missile cruisers (which also have 40str, but 7 moves and well they carry missiles). I am aiming for something like 30 transports, but since they're slow they can only be built in a few cities. Same goes, with a caveat, for other ships. I think it is justified to cash rush some transports, especially in cities with no drydocks nor factories/plants. (TIL cashrushing unlike whipping doesn't take modifiers into account. It's just always 3*hammers remaining). Some research is required to keep Robotics down to 2 turns, because last turn when we clearly lost Fusion I mindlessly dumped a lot of beakersand overflow into Superconductors which we now don't need at all.

I put the huge overflow from Internet into Manhattan Project, but will finish it only later once the first wave is on its way
(and unless someone else builds it). In any case we're still about 6-7 turns from rocketry

This is what demos look like under that regime:




At 100% ! Remember when we made 10k? well let's crack 10m soldiers.



I very much wish we were Spiritual now. Theocracy would be so important, and drafting Mech Inf would also be lovely. (No regrets, we would probably not be where we are with Justinian, and I think we have leveraged Pacal decently. Just a shame that the draft didn't give us Mansa or Asoka)



Two mechanics questions:


1) Given that the Internet is a project and apparently isn't situated in a city:

(uh, I failed to paste in the screenshot, will do in the next report)

Does that mean that we can't conquer it? A shame, because the city in question would totally be a target. And this is super inconsistent of course, Rock'n Roll isn't a place either



2) Rusten mentioned Paratroopers. What are they good for, really? It seems to me that you just drop them to be consumed on the enemy's railroad network the turn after, because they can't attack the turn they are dropped. And any city that you drop them by can be reinforced by railway and airlift. Situational uses I can think of are: a) Quickly advancing on a truly beaten enemy. If they have spent their stack dropping 5-10 by a city might work; b) the inland sea islands, where we would have to set up a canal and divert the boats otherwise, but even there an airlift can save a city.

Also apparently they can only drop if they haven't moved at all yet? So you have to get them into a city or fort in culture, have them rest for the rest of the turn, drop them, rest again, then attack? So the opponent gets 2 turns warning if he's half awake. I'm not sure yet what I'm supposed to like about that yet.





My faces in the reports of the last 12 turns:



Lols were mostly self-deprecatory. Just riding that wave of positivity, I tell you all. No actually I thought it was worse, and in any case I am having a lot of fun even though I feel ever less hopeful.

[klops]

those emotions...

side question: you're switching to total war and try to stop piccs spaceship... do you need to invest 100% on this or do you plan to slowly tech and build a few space-parts? I mean, if your attack slows him down seriously (or maybe you can even capture the HQ) then what would happen afterwards? Any plan to win or is it "stop him, set the world on fire and everything else will tell the future"?