Niccolò Machiavelli's Thread

[novice]

Well, I'm not sure what I think. From a lurker perspective peace is kind of lame.

Is beelining Rifling and Cavs and rolling over TEAM and Pirates unrealistic? Why Communism, I get that Gillette wants that tech - so I suppose our motivation is to deny them the GSpy and Kremlin?

[plako]

What's so bad about making them our vassal? We could certainly drop the protection pact but I thought it might be a useful bargaining chip. If we're asking for gpt, it makes sense to tie it to the duration of the NAP, IMO. So maybe 10 gpt throughout the NAP duration. Also, I guess we shouldn't promise furs any longer than until T200, since we'll lose our own supply from Gillette then.

Edit: the point of asking for 30 gpt is to have something to give up in the negotiations. If we can get him to bargain about that but concede the two cities, we should be happy, IMO.

Just personal preference. I would hate to play from that position and I don't like too much of an idea of a having even willing vassal. I also don't like the fact that we would need to start cool down period with the Pirates.

[plako]

Is beelining Rifling and Cavs and rolling over TEAM and Pirates unrealistic? Why Communism, I get that Gillette wants that tech - so I suppose our motivation is to deny them the GSpy and Kremlin?

Not at all. It would be very realistic. We've several viable alternatives here.

[zakalwe]

I'm not so sure we could roll over the Pirates.

And in general, wars have a way of becoming a lot more expensive than estimated.

Also - if Gillette is the actual threat, then attacking them is probably the most effective way to deal with it. We can take a NAP and concessions from TEAM, and still go ahead with the rifling plan in preparation for hitting Gillette. In fact, that was shaping up to be my preference until I got a bit sidetracked with the idea of going for communism.

Meanwhile, Gillette pretty much have to beeline communism if their strategy is to make sense; so if we go for a military buildup while they are busy chasing that, they may be in trouble.

Of course, we'll keep watching their tech progress and can adjust our plans as needed.

[darrelljs]

Communism is my uneducated vote.

Darrell

[spellman]

I'd go for a long NAP. T220, for 2 cities.

The defensive pact is questionable to me. Based on the skullduggery recently, I wouldn't be surprised if someone springs it just to force us into another war that isn't against Gillette. And since we assume they're the biggest baddest around, following the "attack only one" principle applies here.

GPT is possible, but I'd settle for only 10 or 15 personally. But I'm not terribly good at negotiations.

[plako]

I'd go for a long NAP. T220, for 2 cities.

I would be ok with this or just continuing military build up. You could ask 30 gpt for 20T to offer them something they can negotiate out from the deal.

edit. In case of peace we need a settler fast too to claim the area north from Deerslayer so better start building it somewhere.

[zakalwe]

Though I know its advantagrous for you to keep me guessing, could you tell me where we stand atm?
Currently I'm assuming no aggression (including me planting for cow/wheat) until we hash this out (/lapse into AW again), but your research is making me nervous (hence my own research!).

I'm not sure exactly what he means by settling the cows and wheat. Sounds like he's talking about the wheat west of Irish Breakfast, and I think he wants a city NE of the cows. I guess we'd have to veto both of those (or maybe we could live with the cows city).




I guess we want our own cities 3E of Ramune and 3NW of Ramune, i.e. 1N of both CITY signs. Or maybe even 2N of the western CITY sign.

Proposed reply:

Hi, we're actually not trying to drag this out; quite the opposite, in fact. We've been discussing it quite a lot, trying to come up with viable game plans that do NOT revolve around gobbling up your territory.

The upshot of those discussions is that we're willing to sign a long NAP, lasting until T220, if we get Red Bush, Irish Breakfast, and 600 gold in reparations. The gold can be paid down as 30 gold per turn over a period of 20 turns. The area west of Irish Breakfast would be ours to settle. We also have the central cows in the second ring of our newest city, but you could settle a city 1S of your capital's deer to seal our border. We would also do what we can to help you with happiness resources. We can give you furs until T200, and a silver trade would be on the table once we can secure a second source. If you've got a big happiness crunch, it might also be possible to trade you our only source of silver right away.

What are your thoughts on this?

Personally I think the above (minus the gold perhaps, after some haggling) would be a decent deal for us, as we could then focus on hitting Gillette directly, after a longer buildup.

He may also want to haggle for a longer NAP. Perhaps that is more valuable to him than the gold.

[spellman]

Though I know its advantagrous for you to keep me guessing, could you tell me where we stand atm?
Currently I'm assuming no aggression (including me planting for cow/wheat) until we hash this out (/lapse into AW again), but your research is making me nervous (hence my own research!).

I'm not sure exactly what he means by settling the cows and wheat. Sounds like he's talking about the wheat west of Irish Breakfast, and I think he wants a city NE of the cows. I guess we'd have to veto both of those (or maybe we could live with the cows city).

Might be referring to 2 city spots. There's one in the west of Irish Breakfast with wheat? Although that's smack dab in the middle of everyone so that seems nonsensical...

Otherwise, draft looks good.

[plako]

It might be he means cow+Corn in the middle that would make most sense for him, but would make Irish Breakfast even worse. Maybe we should ask what he means.

Zak's message is ok. Although saying 600 feels a lot more than 30 gpt for the next 20T .