[EitB LVIII] Und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind - Xist Fairy Tales

[xist10]

At least coldrain is advantage is overhelming enough, that this should go fast.

Still, I do think about proposing at least (another) Mage nerf for the next mod version.
Of the last 3 (finished) games, all 3 got decided by Mages.

[Qgqqqqq]

I think there's two paths possible. One is a general mobility downgrade. Mages are a particularly egregious example, but a lot of the same impacts are felt with raider cav, vampires, etc.

The other is to target mages specifically. A small change would be to hit spell extension and haste, and possibly the mobility of summons.

The other thing I'm interested in doing is rebuilding EitB from the Extramodmod base, so we can incorporate some of their extra features (e.g. BUG). Kinda need the motivation of interest to do these changes though.

[xist10]

   

Can you explain, why I can see these two tiles ?

coldrian captured 5 cities this turn.
Maybe I can hold Slugdeholme (aka coldrain can't reach it), but I don't think so.
coldrain is dwarf, he shouln't be slowed down by hills.

And Bing declared this turn. I don't think that this will have any effect - because Bing din't capture the possible workers and coldrain will conquer the 2 eastern cities before Bings next turn.

   

I think I will prepare a last post for tommorow.
Still, this game should end very soon.

[RefSteel]

I hope you enjoyed the game in spite of the outcome! Also...

Can you explain, why I can see these two tiles ?

...no, I can't think of any explanation! Were they visible for your whole turn? Or did they become visible at some point part-way through? Or...?

[Qgqqqqq]

Neither, possibly a culture bug? Sorry things are ending this way!

[xist10]

These two tiles were visible when I open the turn and I didn't care enough to check after I ended my turn.

Now for the promised conclusion.

I am relatively satisfied with the game.

In the end I think, I should have tried mages again instead of vampires. I was PHi, I should be able to produce a few Great Sages.
Anyway, I still would also be behind the ARC civ.

It's a shame that I lose here as a 2nd, I think I delivered the 3rd (or 4th) best performance.
I can't really jugde DaveV performance in this game.

Why has the game end this way ?
Magic is too strong, vampires despite everything are too limited (and maybe too weak ?) and in the end I actually blame the map.

Not as extreme as in the RB PB72, but I still felt disadvantaged on the map.

Let's look at the starting positions.




I use the already mentioned trick and modify promotion.
Unfortunately, only 100 visibility did not work, the game does not manage to simulate this in a reasonable time.
10 seems to be almost the limit.




I am Calabim, my plan should include many farms because my UU and UB both benefits from a lot of .
In the course of this, rivers are more important to me than for others. I can built farms only near fresh water.
I can spread irrigation theoretically faster than in BTS, but effectively a lot later, since significantly more prioritization has to be made.

As already written in the last report, there are almost 5-6 tech trees in FFH2, and irrigation is not on the way for most important techs. Construction is not that expensive, but still, mostly useful for secondary advantages.

How is the river situation here ?
It seems to be reasonably okay.
I have 2 long rivers north of me.
But that's it. And these 2 rivers are surrounded by jungle. - And what has no jungle has swamp for -1 food.
I think just like irrigation, the ability to chop jungle is more or less late than in BtS.
Still, in comparison with Construction, bronze working is a military important tech.

I also have some hills in bad locations, which later becomes rather difficult.




Here for comparison Brian.
Here, too, jungle in the south, but much more directly usable land on the river. - And the jungle mostly on already "useless" hills.
And 2 mana from special places (visible), which I neglect something.




Davev doesn't look so good either, but it has a few oases that give fresh water again.
But also here, not a jungle and short distances late with irrigation.
Better than my start position too.




The situation is similar with Coldrain.


Bing also has some jungle on the river and a few bad hill chains.
Similar to Auro. - Auro's start is probably the worst from the farm point, but the Kurioatats want to have cottages.

In 200 turns, I think the start positions are relative similiar, but in the first ~100 turns ? I think I have the worst.

Now to the graphs:




In terms of points, I never was very good.
I like to push that on expensive techs and bad growth (farms).
Not right, but I just say that.

Probably too few settlers and too bad economy. - Which is in certain contrast to each other.




GNP is actually one of these points. I was always bad here.
The scale is of course massively distorted by Auro's culture output.

But I also slowly fought myself forward until the vampires (together with the blight) have reduced my and with that, my general output.
I lost gold at 100% a short time.




In contrast to food, I was relativ good in the department.
See my main point, not enough farms.

I lead even with a clear distance. Double the production of the second in one turn ?
My UB really paid off with per .
Until my dropped, of course.




And here the food.
Relative long last place.
I made a leap forward when I settled the jungle, but that was after half of the game.

And I was still last of the great empires.
DaveV lost already half of his cities, Auro had only 3.




And here is the point, why I see myself in 3rd place of performance in this game.

I did something in contrast to Bing or Brian.
Coldrain clearly has the strongest military in the world and I don't know exactly how much of Auro is generated by the strong T4 units (and as such inflated) but I had the 3rd strongest military (in player hands) until the end.



What would I have done differently?

The first city was probably wrong. The city wasn't that good and I think, I could have expanded faster with food build workers than with hammer build.
Research wise, I should have prioritise bronze working more to clear the jungle - and generally settle in the jungle, even without BV. There were a few tiles without jungle.

Cartography was probably wrong too. City states was hardly better than God King at that time and Aristocracy would have been available a short time later. - "Only" 120 (60%) more beakers than Cartography.


Otherwise I should have left an Auro and coldrain to themselves and attack Bing.
Military forces in the round of my "declaration of war" towards coldrain:




Coldrain is dominating at the time - the Wood Golems are now starting with Fire2, in addition to 15 mages with ~10 promotions and 16 chariots.




I don't really think Auro can keep Minas Tirith with that force.
Auro defense consist more or less of 5 super units ?
This can work against Spectres, rather not against fireballs.
6 assassins are not enough either - especially since they lose against Coldrain's super mages anyway.




Bing, on the other hand, has 16 axemen - and 9 archers.




I have already 19 vampires alone.
Since fast recruitment in FFH2 is not so easy, should I be able to attack Bing without any risk ?

My skeletons have +90%, so they should be able to defeat axemen in the defence too.

In the end I would have been open to an attack by Coldrain, but the question is always whether you will voluntarily open a 2nd front.

And as you can see, I would have been open even if I tried to defend in that direction.
Coldrains had a speed advantage over me in my culture !



In the end, I do think we should be start discussion a bit over balancing.
I think, we should start thinking about mobility in general and mages in particular.
I know, my ideas are probably too drastic, but I throw a few ideas in here.
I don't expect all to be used
1. Remove the mobility promotions. - or add at least a need for combat X
2. Remove Spellextension (outside of SUM (and Heros ?)) - or add a level requirement too ?
3. Remove the Combatline from arcane units. Mages can relative easy collect XP and with that Combat Promotions. - Maybe create a new promotion line to replace combat without the own combat strength if you don't want to weaken summons/combat spells ?
As I mentioned a few lines above, mages can easily become strong enough to win against newly build assassins, which should be the classic counter against mages.
4. Remove the free spells if you have more than one mana node.

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah, I hadn't seen these. I think removing mobility altogether is a bit much - though it would certainly shift the dial.

I think spell extension could be looked at. I like a tech requirement - level is unlikely to do anything unless its 5-6, which is a lot. I don't like removing the combat line, though I accept your point. Perhaps giving minus 1str? Or giving assassin's a specific bonus?

I would prefer to handle that by adding friction to the time to swap nodes - a 2 or even 3t timer.

[xist10]

Yes, removing mobility straight up is maybe a bit too much.
Still, movement is that important - think about the discussions about the viking UB in CtH. And that is without the ability to multiply it with roads.
I still want to throw it in.
I think a need for Combat2 and Combat 4 - or Combat3 and Combat5 could be a good idea.
I don't really like to gate it behind research, because I think, research is already too slow.
And in the end, a tech requirement doesn't really change to problem, only kicks it down the road.
Yes, can can ignore T4 units mostly, but in this game, coldrain has Archmages and Auro had a lot longer access to high priests and eidolons. - And a T5 unit with his dragon.

I don't think, that a tech requirement would change my collaps here.
Okay, if the would be no implosion from DaveV, maybe I could have reach my vampires fast enough to help DaveV do defend (not likely).

Now to point 4:
My problem here is more or less how easy it's to stack promotions on mages. Especial free promotions.
coldrains mages would a bit easier too handle, if they need to invest 2 promotions to get fireball.

In general, I do think the main problem with mages is partly, that they get so many promotions.
My best vampire - the found adventurer - had 19 promotions add the end.
Of that, 4 were spell effects, 7 were starting promotions (I'm AGG) and I choosed only 7 promotions. - The last was the weapon promotion.
I had ~4 other elite vampires with 5 promotions I could choose and up to 11 starting/buff promotions.

The most vampires had less than 10 XP and as such 3 promotions I choosed.

coldrain mages army had a few turns earlier about 10 promotions per mage he could choose ?
The picture in #54 is not easy to read, I count 163 promotions over 11 mages. Of that 163 promotions 5*11 promotions should be spells or starting promotions (dwarf, potency, regeneration and focus 1 + focus 2.).
That means 108 promotions over 11 mages ?

Okay, he got 2-3 free promotions per mage (adept, mage, dead hero wonder), but the point remains, the mages had more XP promotions than the feed vampires.
I decimated my population to get a few vampires up to 5 XP promotions.
coldrain got that more or less for free ?

Okay, the usefulness of more than one spell is up to debate, but the point reamains, mages get to easy promotions. But from the 108 promotions, only 31 were spells.


Yes, I do question a bit if that change would be enough, but that is for me the easiest way to reduce the amount of promotions for mages.


If we could reduce the amount of free promotions for Mages, maybe they don't have the XP to choose the combat line.
-1 str for mages is a better idea than a bonus for assasins, I think.
I like to removal of combat a lot better, because even a str 3 unit is no easy prey with combat5. - And maybe even stoneskin.
The point is, I expect the mages to be relativ easy prey if you get them with dedicated combat unis - even T2 units such as swordsmen (with str 5 from copper).
And the promotions are that good here (and the promotion spread that loopsided), that I even with str 3 mages see more cointoss fights than not if I catch a mage stack without defenders with T3 units not on flat terrain.


Towards spell extension if the most already written ?
Level requirement had the advantage, that you can't "cheat" with free promotions.
And my problem with tech requirements apply here too.
Level here instead of Combat, because mages can "cheat" more to reach the necassary combat promotion. - And I don't think mobility on mages (alone) is that problematic.


But I think, in the end most problems with mages are too much promotions for the mages.
I think, which a few buffs (str 5 and/or more combat promotions) mage would be viable even without the spells.

Maybe a radical idea, but remove (nearly) all source of free promotions for mages and try that ?

[coldrain]

I don't really think Auro can keep Minas Tirith with that force.
Auro defense consist more or less of 5 super units ?
This can work against Spectres, rather not against fireballs.

I actually arrived to the opposite conclusion during the final stage of the game -> fireballs apply their collateral damage when units are above 70% health. So if I did maximum damage with maelstrom, fireballs would do no more collateral damage at all. If not counting the Dragon, the best defenders of Aurorarcher were eidolons, who are resistant to fire damage, resulting in by fireballs of having <1% chance to kill fortified combat 4 or 5 eidolons in a city, even after maelstrom. Well eidolons are demonic, making them immune to death damage so spectres would struggle too. But spectres could be buffed with enchanted weapons and dance of blades (+1 first strike), maybe making damaging hits more likely? Actually, maybe hosts of einherjar would have been the best summons for the job (holy damage weakness of demons, can apply dance of blades).

Anyway, you built the most impressive army in addition to Aurorarcher, making you another contender for a win. As you mentioned, perhaps attacking Bing would have given you a shot for victory, but that would have included a risk of leaving the border next to me defended with too few vampires? Thanks for playing!