[SPOILERS] Oxy and suttree save the day, again!

[Kurumi]

NUMBERS NO

[suttree]

No diplo is hard

I'd love the chance to help out with Pacal - count me a dedlurker. What will you pick if Native America is taken? Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff you've already talked about....

Talking myself through things:

AGRICULTURE
is a must to maximize food hammers given Pacal EXP worker bonus.
MINING
I assume you pick your civ last, so China will be gone, ruling out mining.
HUNTING
The best argument for hunting is that it gives +2b/t towards AH, worth maybe 22b. I don't think that's enough, so rule out hunting.
THE WHEEL
Would be ideal in the absence of other resource tiles, but at least one of the fish or sheep are desirable so you can share out food to the second city. Early pottery demands early BW in order to cash out the food doubling of the granary - you won't have time to research additional worker techs. Factor in the absence of riverside grassland tiles and pottery before BW loses a great deal of it's appeal. BW by itself is already great with EXP.
FISHING
Oxy's micro as already discussed.
MYSTICISM
If you can get Inca, sure

Let's say both Native America and the Dutch are taken - I think the real question is if it's worth taking a civ like America solely for the starting techs. To provoke debate, I'm tempted to say that it is.

With the capitol shown, there doesn't seem to be much benefit to early vertical growth. So do what Pacal does best, whip, go horizontal like a mf, rush currency, slot in HBR somewhere and you're golden. With a single resource, a chop, and a few cottages every city is profitable and productive in no time. The effect of most UU/UB (unless you could build terraces or something ) is minimal on a plan like that. Devil's advocate says Zulu, maybe, but I think you guys are the team to beat.

[suttree]

P.S. If you can get Native America, that would be awesome. Cheap City Defense/Guerrilla II to support the REX and resourceless axes to boot. .

[suttree]

PPS I do believe you could make Zulu work. SIP and the prerequisite bonus from Hunting is enough to get AH on t12, I think.

[suttree]

Winning the post count war is key.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Anything but Agriculture/Fishing will be slower because you have to dump production into a warrior instead of a work boat after building the worker. It probably delays everything by a couple turns and we lose out on early commerce by delaying the work boat. Agriculture/Mining is really the only other option, but even then it's noticeably slower. The problem is, Animal Husbandry needs to be researched by turn 18(when the worker moves to the sheep) and Fishing needs to be researched by turn 12(when the worker completes). So yeah, we should really prioritize Agriculture/Fishing, it represents a 5-turn advantage over Agriculture/Mining and an even larger advantage over everything else. Agricululture/Hunting could work I guess, but it's still slower, and I doubt the Zulu will fall to us while both the Native Americans and Dutch will be picked. If all 3 are picked, I guess we choose between Persia and America.

I'd give our chances of getting Native America to be pretty good, they're not the most flashy civ. I think the metagame over at CFC and some of the other sites is much more focused on synergistic civ/leader combinations and power UUs. I fully expect Rome and Byzantium to be picked and I wouldn't be surprised if multiple AGG leaders were taken as well. Honestly, it's a slight disadvantage picking first because I think we could get a tier 2 FIN leader with pick 10(In the CFC demogame, RB got Pacal with pick 7!!!) If Native America is picked, yes I think the Dutch are worth it. As for America, well I already said I considered Dutch to be a blank civ, so why not? That would be pretty hilarious, and might even have some diplo effects of making people underestimate us. That said, I really doubt the Dutch will be taken.

[HBHR]

A bit Dutch-shy?

Sure Commodore, now the Dutch Empire is tempting

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Snake pick is about to start, last chance for anybody who doesn't want Pacal to speak up

[HBHR]

This start has the potential to be amazing!

Ok, so here's what I have so far

-Research Path is Animal Husbandry-Mining-Bronze Working-The Wheel-Pottery

-Builds in capital Worker-Work Boat-Settler-Warrior-Warrior-Worker(Whipped)-Settler-Worker

-Second Settler completed eot 32, moves during slavery revolt turn 33 and settles turn 34. Obviously this is dependent on our surrondings, but 3S of the capital is a great second city sharing the sheep, fish and 2 potential cottages

-Builds in second city- Warrior-Worker

-The capital grows to size 5 and then double whips a worker with huge overflow. The whipped worker will road to the third city site, while the overflow completes another settler

-Third Settler completed eot43

-The only real knock on this start is that we don't get a cottage down until turn 48, I think it's worth it

Situation turn 44



-Pacal of Native America looks to be the perfect combination , Kurumi, HBHR what are your thoughts?

Great work OXY I' m learning a lot
This clearly is an "all in" strategy. All teams starting with scout help a lot, but we must to be really attentive to demographics for an close neighbor with early rush plans. Late cottages hurt a little bit, but the lake and seafood balance it.
All this said, i'll take it. I agree with this wonderful plan
About the civ, Native American look good, because early no-bronze land UU may deter another civs from attacking us. Totem pole really suck
In other site, the Dutch UB is so fabulous, and if our strategy work well, we still being competititve really late in the game, so the dike can help us a lot
Also, we need to wait and see what the other teams choose.

[HBHR]

Back at an actual computer:

Code:

t00,1   0f/t  5h/t  0f   0h(WORKER=60)    WORK PLAINS HILL
t12,1   2f/t  2h/t  0f   0h(WB=30)        WORKER FINISHED, WORK GRASS FOREST
t16,1   5f/t  2h/t  8f   8h               WHEAT FARMED,WORK WHEAT
t19,2   5f/t  3h/t  1f   14h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/GRASS FOREST
t21,2   8f/t  2h/t  11f  20h              SHEEP PASTURED,WORK WHEAT/SHEEP
t23,3   8f/t  2h/t  3f   24h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/RAW FISH
t26,4   10f/t 5h/t  1f   0h(SETTLER)      GROW, WB, GH MINED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH/GHMINE
t33,4   SETTLER

I think this is what you have in mind, yes? That is a beautiful start! Plenty of production, commerce, everything! With a cheap granary, you can work Fish/Wheat/Mine growing on to mine and lake for a perfect 6->3 whip cycle with no additional worker labour. So fast!

I Agree