[SPOILER] Victoria of Babylon - Greens - seifer_md

[Square Leg]

Nice update! Thanks!

(although not to his neighbouring city since we are still fighting a culture war there).

There can be some advantages to having religion in neighbouring cities...

[seifer_md]

I remember in vanilla Civ 4 you can see their cities if they have your religion as their state's, and this would be handy since you could see what they were building, garrisoning, or potentially sending your way. Don't know if that's the same for BTS. Since Malakai is an ally that advantage wouldn't be as important compared to trying to claim that corn through stronger culture. I also don't know if it might give a discount to espionage missions, but in our game we've ruled those out completely. I must be missing something or unaware of something altogether. Geez, thanks for making me feel stupid Square Leg! =P

[novice]

I remember in vanilla Civ 4 you can see their cities if they have your religion as their state's, and this would be handy since you could see what they were building, garrisoning, or potentially sending your way. Don't know if that's the same for BTS. Since Malakai is an ally that advantage wouldn't be as important compared to trying to claim that corn through stronger culture. I also don't know if it might give a discount to espionage missions, but in our game we've ruled those out completely. I must be missing something or unaware of something altogether. Geez, thanks for making me feel stupid Square Leg! =P

Well let's see what we can remember on possible positive effects of having your state religion in a neighbour's city.
- City visibility is of course an important effect but not in BTS.
- Espionage discounts might be the second most important, but as you said, espionage is banned in this game. However you also get discounts on the passive espionage effects of city visibility and investigate city.
- Necessary for enabling religious victory.
- If the neigbour dow's you they get extra unhappiness in that city.
- Defying AP resolutions causes unhappiness in that city, if the religion in question is the AP religion.
- Adds income to your shrine.
- Prevents natural spread of your neighbour's religion to that city, and reduces missionary success rate in the city.

Listed roughly in order of importance. I'm sure there are more effects as well.

[Square Leg]

I may be wrong but I thought it also increased the chance of a cultural flip in the city if it has your state religion. Which can be useful if you are planning on putting massive pressure on the city in the future.

I wasn't trying to make you feel silly, just wanted to provoke some thought into the options!

[seifer_md]

Haha that's alright Square Leg, I was only joking around. I appreciate your efforts to help provoke some thought on the matter, and to your contributions on this as well Novice. I do fully intend to spread my religion to this city, I was just wondering if I could use this slight advantage in culture output to claim that corn since Malakai wouldn't be too far ahead in culture just yet. I might have to wait until Drama/Music before I make that push, and like you said, if it makes it easier for his city to flip to me then that would be the greatest outcome I could hope to achieve anyway. =)


Turn 65 was very quick, but I did get some luck:





After re-checking my build for Vault 13 I was surprised to see I could build a Confucian missionary. Checking the event log I saw that the religion had managed to spread to my capital passively and I could use the free missionary elsewhere. Not only that, but I could start building more missionaries a turn earlier than I had expected so this was quite a pleasant series of events for me.

I got some more border expansions this turn which makes my demographics for land size not look so pathetic. Two more cities will be dropped by me real shortly to aid this. I also noticed Malakai is up to six cities now (even with Kyan) and Jowy is yet to put down a third. He is so far behind in this sense but we have had a strong relationship so far in this game that I think he could really help me out if he either decided to give up on winning this game, or if I was to help prop him up with some settler donations (of course nothing's free in this world...). I haven't heard from him in a while so I'll see what he's up to and how he's feeling about this game.

Lastly it looks like my worker is two turns away from establishing full connectivity between Malakai's and my own cities. This should see our trade route yield double. I'm already leading GNP by a slight margin so this would hopefully make that margin a bit bigger. Although looking at the demographics I can see people are already making use of the foreign trade routes. Now I know it's not me, and I doubt it's Strike or Jowy. My guess is Kyan and Cull have a connection since someone has a negative value and they have a discrepancy in the number of their cities (or maybe Cull doesn't have Currency yet for that extra route). Either way I'm glad my foreign routes will be sorted out very soon, and my market builds will be aided my Organised Religion.

[seifer_md]

Turn 67-68.





My missionary to The Hub did it's thing this turn, so I should get a few bonus hammers just in time for the chop to complete the library next turn. You can see another missionary in the top right corner who's heading down towards the first of my new cities. My capital is about to finish another missionary to go into the other new city so it'll be nice having a religion in these cities to speed up development since I won't have to build a monument. I'll build one more missionary to send to Malakai since I saw he adopted Organised Religion this turn.





So the first of these new cities is Necropolis. It's inner tiles can't offer too much at the moment so I'm chopping out a granary and maybe a library at least until the borders pop. The next city is 3 turns off and should make me look a little more competitive in terms of city numbers. I believe Kyan has 7, Malakai 6, Strike and myself 5, Cull and Jowy 4. It's impressive how fast Strike got his cities out and Jowy dropped two just last turn. He may not need settlers from me after all. I'll see if my research rate can support another city, but until I manage to cover some of the costs this may be it for expansion for the time being.

[seifer_md]

Turn 69-73. Well it's been nearly two weeks since my last post so I thought I better get something written for this thread. We hit a bit of a hurdle but have managed to rectify Strike's inability to play the save by setting him up with Twinkletoes. It looks like TT is going to be mainly controlling his Civ, at least until Strike can get his situation sorted.





Over the last couple of turns I have focused on getting my religion spread to each one of my cities, particularly for the newly founded ones which need the border pop. I received an interesting response from Malakai informing me that Kyan had bought his commitment in a deal where Kyan builds missionaries to send to his cities and in exchange Malakai gets half of the gold that this generates. This message caught me at a really good time because I was about to send a missionary to Malakai but could divert it elsewhere. Ultimately I was pretty happy to hear that Kyan was going to be spending his production on churning out missionaries all for a few gold each turn. The plan itself isn't terrible as some gain is better than no gain, but this is something I wouldn't be interested in doing myself. Production can be averted elsewhere, and I have no Great Prophet source in order to reap my side of the benefits from this. My intentions were to offer Malakai a single missionary so he can then begin taking advantage of Organised Religion. Depending on how well it spread I would then decide whether to focus on getting the shrine, this I think was a much better deal. I also have the suspicion that Kyan has offered this deal to his neighbours (Cull and Strike) as well. Looking at the logs a Great Prophet was BIAFAL and I assume this was Kyan starting to put together his plan. One thing Malakai assured me was that he was happy for me to spread my religion into his land despite Kyan's so I don't believe I've really lost out on anything.





This screenshot shows a few Great Scientists popping up. Malakai did mention he was trying to get another one for his commerce city. It's difficult to say who the other belonged to, although I really hope it wasn't Kyan. =)
While I am obsessing over Kyan I have also noticed his power score has been rocketing up and he is now our leader. I don't know what he is up to but in the event he may be moving a strike force over to attack I have decided to set up a sentry net to see it coming. Due to the thickness of the land and hill tiles I can cover the entire section with two lookouts. This leaves the possibility of moving troops in the other direction but I'm hoping Jowy would have my back as I have already helped him out in that regard. Hopefully he wouldn't target Jowy instead, but we really need to be kept on our toes here. Lastly there is always the possibility of a naval invasion but I think the chances are very low.





Here's a shot of my two most recently found cities (The Boneyard was my latest addition). They already have a decent defence to prevent Jowy hitting me like he hit Strike (not that he would). I haven't spoken to Jowy about city placements but I imagine he won't be unhappy with these anyway. The river that runs horizontally effectively splits our land symmetrically. The sites are good to defend and not too far away from my other cities, but with enough space to fit in decent filler cities in the back lines.





This did make me laugh a little but Malakai did mention he would use hammer overflow and stone to finish off The Great Wall in a single turn. The wall there suggests that the corn tile is well guarded but I was able to finish the library in The Hub so both adjacent cities will be producing 4 culture per turn. I just need a way to increase on this but that probably involves going after drama for theatres and artists (which aren't crucial to the development of any of my other cities) or perhaps picking up techs for temples and monasteries. This I think is my better option, at least for now.





Malakai also sent me a trade this turn where he gives me his 2nd resource of fish in exchange for my only resource of clams. Technically he's getting the better deal, but this trade results in no loss to me. I think I can safely put it down to further building our relationship. It's interesting, he may be having difficulties with health in his cities to request this trade, although health is not really an issue facing me at the moment. I'll ask him about it next time.





And just lastly to confirm my suspicions I catch a glimpse of Kyan gifting Cull a missionary. I guess in the next turn or so we might see Cull adopt OR. This whole scenario raises a few concerns for me. Kyan obviously wants for his religion to spread throughout Cull's and Malakai's lands. Perhaps this suggests that he wants to have peaceful relations with these two which leaves Jowy and myself open as alternate rivals. Further increases in Kyan's power rating may be the best indication of something no good is coming. Time will tell and I'll have to remain alert.

Finally I would like to mention a bit about my current plans and intentions. I have focused strongly on researching Civil Service and it comes in next turn for me to adopt Bureaucracy. I'll be the first player to do so provided nothing happens in this next round of turns, and this should hopefully give me a solid advantage in production and gold output. Also coming in this turn is my first Great Scientist which will build an academy in my capital. This times well with the sudden bonus from Bureaucracy. Also as markets complete and my costs are beginning to be handled better, I'll look to put down another city or two to get me up to similar numbers as Kyan, our leader. My next direction in teching will take into account I want culture from temples or more likely monasteries, and a desire to put forges into my cities with Metal Casting. MC also points me towards Machinery and being able to get Macemen into action. Oh wait, I don't have Iron Working yet! Maybe I should find some iron before I get too ahead of myself...

[seifer_md]

Turn 74-75. After completing these two turns we'll be in the AD years so I'll provide a bit of an overview of my empire.

Civil Service came in on T74 so I revolted immediately so I can get that into full effect. I sent my Great Scientist towards my capital to get the academy up an running but I must have misjudged or incorrectly moved the GS because I won't get to see the effects to my research until T76. Also no one else has adopted Bureaucracy, I'm the first one, so each additional turn I hold this advantage will be great. I will explain what this has done for me and my economy later on. First let's take a look at my land.




Here are my core cities that are reasonably well developed. I don't have Calendar or Monarchy to make use of the spices and wine, but I'm not really struggling against the happy cap. My cities are trying to grow. I don't have many farms (just the corn and flood plains tile are being used) so perhaps it's not surprising my growth hasn't been great. Instead I have focused working lots of cottages->towns and since I am also financial, I think this has effectively made me leader or close to in tech. As you can see I like to leave myself lots of notes because on several occasions I have forgotten what my goals were due to slow turns.





My capital, Vault 13, is a hybrid city and is clearly the production powerhouse of my civilisation. I now have the benefit of +50% production to appreciate from Bureaucracy, not to mention it is also contributing the most coins into my coffers. It'll become a great deal stronger with the academy due next turn. Both the happy and healthy caps are not in distress so my main goal is to grow this bad boy to use more tiles. I'll aim to cottage most of the grassland tiles to better my economy, then switch city workers back to production if something needs building. I built the Pyramids way back when and with Metal Casting my next priority and getting a forge in here, perhaps I'll be able to land a Great Engineer or two.





Shady Sands is my 2nd strongest city and is focused towards research and economy. If I can't work improved tiles here I've been running scientists since they put away 6 beakers from being in Representation. I'd also like a 2nd Great Scientist to put another academy in this city, since if you minus the palace it does just about as much good in this respect as my capital. Again I'm trying to get it to grow onto grassland cottages. The grassland hills will provide good production in the future in conjunction with the horse and cows.





Junktown is also a commerce city. This is due to site having silver, furs and two oases to start with. It sometimes borrows the irrigated corn off Shady Sands if it can, and again here I'll be trying to grow onto grassland cottages. I am currently working the forest to utilise the +25% production to buildings from Organised Religion, and it looks like I'll whip the market in the next turn or so.





Here is my border with Malakai. Currently I only have one city but hopefully it will consist of two border cities and a third just behind to provide support and a place to stage defenders.





The Hub is currently my only coastal city. It doesn't have great production and it is growing faster than I can build tile improvements for it. This means I'll likely whip this city a lot, and if I can eventually steal that corn tile away from Malakai it will be a strong city, probably worthy of Maoi Statues. For the time being it is another commerce city with several coast tiles and grassland cottages to work. A market is being built here for this benefit and will likely be whipped ASAP.





Over on the other side and down towards the south is the land I share with Jowy. He has been very slow getting cities up because of his war with Strike but I haven't been too bold here and settled just the two cities that are indisputably in the northern hemisphere and on 'my side'. There's plenty of room for filler cities, and since my economy is looking quite good I'll probably drop a few more in the next 10 or so turns.





Necropolis is very much a new city only just about to pop it's 2nd ring borders. It is another hybrid city which will work cottages mostly, but have the production capabilities if it needs to build something. I'll also get dyes out of this but I am lacking Bronze Working to clear the jungle. I founded it behind a river so this should help me defend it better should the time come.





The Boneyard is my newest city and hasn't really had a chance to do anything yet. This site has a bit more production potential, it itself is on a hill for defense. I just added my religion to this city this turn so the borders will expand in 5 turns. When this happens I should have a fairly solid southern border.

That's it for my cities. I'll now just include a few more screenshots of my economy and military for comparison purposes.





I've included my values for both 100% and 0% research. Unit supply costs are quite low so I can support a much larger army. Other than that I hope my numbers a fairly competitive.







From a military perspective I am sitting in fourth. Kyan has been sky rocketing for the past 10 or so turns and it looks like others are just reacting to him mostly. I have set up a bit of a sentry net to my west and will be looking to do something similar down south. I have the production capabilities (not to mention I'm not far behind in military strength) to be able to protect myself. I have stone for whipping walls should the need arise. Since Kyan has the largest score and biggest empire I plan to focus on improving my economy and cities rather than military. With some good diplomacy and recon work hopefully this is do-able.





Lastly I put the demographics in (at 100% research). As you can see I am number 1 here in GNP. I can't say what Kyan is doing with his slider but regardless I am confident in this area. I know he has a fair bit more culture contributing to his GNP and I'm yet to drop my academy in my capital. Hopefully being competitive in this regard keeps me well and truly in this game. Soldier points I have just recently dropped to fourth (his could be easily fixed) but in everything else that counts I am in a healthy 2nd or 3rd. Obviously as my cities develop and I catch or surpass Kyan in city numbers I may even be able to take number 1 spot.

So as it stand with this game, Malakai and I have been taking turns to leap frog one another for second place scorewise. Over the next 2-4 turns most of my cities will have market places complete and boost my commerce output significantly I predict. My economy should be able to support a few more cities after that so I'll continue expanding. I also need a few more workers to keep up with cities growing on to improved tiles. With an ear to the ground I'll pay attention to the military concerns of my rivals and with a little hard work hopefully I'll be around for another 75 turns. Well I hope I can instill some faith in lurkers that I may be able to win this game, despite Kyan's significant score lead. We all saw what happened to Speaker and Sullla, now what's the outcome when this happens to someone a little less skilled with Civ 4? My point is it's not over yet, by any means. For those that take the time to read my thread I would like to thank you. Also for the comments that you leave, they are usually nothing but extremely helpful, so thank you once again.

[Wyrmsbane]

thanks for going back to youralways excellent reports. i always read and enjoy them a lot.

i think that you should not always worry about score, demographics show real winner and no clear leader there. with good tech, you canattack who you want with advanced units and get easy win?

what is diplomatic state like with ganging up on leader? maybe if you convince others to attack and youjust give tiny number of forces then you could use that to make yourself more ahed for economy and be unstoppable with everyone thinking kyan is threat not you? seems more smart to win on demographics than score as it isnt so obvious.

also, your sentry net doesnt include attack from malakai or jowy, maybe you should set sentry there also?

[seifer_md]

Thank you Wyrmsbane for your support, I appreciate it. =) I guess I did a lousy job describing the diplomatic situation. I'll try and amend some of that now.

My two neighbours, Jowy and Malakai, have had nothing but flourishing relationships with me for the entire duration of this game. I had Jowy's back earlier on when Strike brought his assault against him. I've offered Jowy support and kindness which he has also returned to me so I therefore feel we are on pretty good terms. Jowy is still playing catch up after the war so I don't think there is much he could do to harm me at the moment. While ideally I would set up a sentry net for my south (I've got a chariot and warrior running around exploring), the two cities I have to seal my borders there are currently well defended and Jowy is my buffer.

Malakai just recently sent me an email stating his concern for Kyan's growing score and power. He wanted to make an agreement where we notified each other of any army movements through our territories with the further clause of shutting off open borders with anyone trying to attack us. I told him I would be happy to notify him of armies moving through my territory but mentioned keeping open borders could work to our advantage. We could continue passing information about the units and their positioning while maintaining trust in the attacking player. Their misplaced trust could result in a powerful counter attack so the open borders idea should be more situational than a certainty. From this proposal and our previous good relations I don't believe Malakai to be a likely threat to me at all. This is technically risky (although not very likely) but I need to take a few gambles to focus on improving my economy and trying to catch Kyan. Both Jowy and Malakai recognise Kyan's run away Civ as a serious threat that needs to be stopped if we can't close the gap through non aggressive terms. Cull and Twinkletoes (playing for Strike) also recognise this but are friends with Kyan where it may be very hard convincing them to participate in such an arrangement. But who knows what will happen, I'm more waiting for somebody else to make the first move.