[SPOILERS] Gira + Vanrober. A tribute to Silvia Perez Cruz.

[giraflorens]

   

The fall of an Impire.  Enjoy the flame of the cities burning. Thanks to Carthage that it goes very fast.

[vanrober]

He offered peace which i didnt accept, we can do nothing with just one city and no copper. So i try to force him to come back. Superdead declared him war so he is retriting to fight him and might be the moment to recover. Otherwise he will finally kill us. Thats what will happen i think but, lets try it.
   

[giraflorens]

T97. Gira of Japan is been eliminated. We have to learn a lot for next time. Thanks to all that contributed and made any comments.

[scooter]

I saw you guys ask for some suggestions about city settling in pindicator's thread, so I thought I would take a stab at it here since I can see your full thread and thought process at the time. Here's something that jumped out at me.




It looks like you made this dotmap with the primary goal of limiting overlap. I used to do this too. I'd suggest you embrace the overlap. It will be hundreds of turns from now before the lack of tiles to work matter, and the game is often won or lost long before then. Also, prioritize having resources in your first ring when you aren't Creative. So for example.


* Your city marked "2city" should really be 1E I think. The location you picked doesn't have any food in its first ring, which means you need to find a way to pop its borders. The most important thing every city needs is food in the early going, because it lets you work more tiles, and it lets you convert food into production via Slavery, which is very efficient. Also, this location sort of orphans the clams, which is a very good tile. Or rather, it makes it so the only way you can work the clams is by settling on the marble, which isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not ideal. If you settle 1E, you get two strong tiles in the cow + gems in your first ring, and it opens up the possibility of settling on the grassland forest that gets marble and clams in its first ring. Finally, settling tighter lets you share tiles, which means you need fewer worker turns. For example, if you have 8 population between two cities, that means you need 8 improved tiles for them all to be working good tiles. However, if they have overlap, you could make do with just 6 improved tiles, and alternate which city you whip so that you're usually hovering around more like 6 population. Or maybe you still improve 8 tiles, but now you can grow taller at times. There are other benefits, but those are the simplest ones.


* Your city marked "4city" is not in an ideal spot either. General rule of thumb: if you aren't Creative, your first few cities must have food in the first ring if at all possible, or at least a concrete plan to quickly pop borders (like founding a religion in it the next turn to make it holy). 4city here can do nothing but work weak tiles for a long time until it pops borders to get the clams, which means it can't help you grow further. You really want to consider moving it 1SE here to get the clams in the first ring, and that becomes even more true later:




You find copper right next to it too. This means you could have had copper + clams in the first ring, which would be a top-notch third or fourth city. It's especially important your first 3-4 cities be really fast starting, because it feeds into how fast you get your 5th-9th cities.


* I'd recommend doing way more chopping when you have that many forests, especially when you have a trait that can benefit from it early. For example, your Imperialistic trait gives you +50% production towards settlers. Chops count for this! So in the early game, chops towards settler are worth 30h - it's sort of like getting free Mathematics from the start. What you can do is deposit lots of chops into settlers, which means you spend less time building them and more time growing. This has some mild synergy too, because your increased happy cap due to Charismatic means you can grow taller and/or whip harder. Plus, if you chop all those riverside grassland tiles, you can get some cottages down which will help pay for your expansion.


Any questions? I think you had some challenges here that were unfortunate. The barbarian thing was a bit unlucky obviously, but also it was unlucky that you spawned next to pindicator, who I think is 1) one of the strongest players in this field, and 2) also Imperialistic, so he could race you to that northern city you wanted. Hopefully some of this helps though!

[vanrober]

I saw you guys ask for some suggestions about city settling in pindicator's thread, so I thought I would take a stab at it here since I can see your full thread and thought process at the time. Here's something that jumped out at me.




It looks like you made this dotmap with the primary goal of limiting overlap. I used to do this too. I'd suggest you embrace the overlap. It will be hundreds of turns from now before the lack of tiles to work matter, and the game is often won or lost long before then. Also, prioritize having resources in your first ring when you aren't Creative. So for example.


* Your city marked "2city" should really be 1E I think. The location you picked doesn't have any food in its first ring, which means you need to find a way to pop its borders. The most important thing every city needs is food in the early going, because it lets you work more tiles, and it lets you convert food into production via Slavery, which is very efficient. Also, this location sort of orphans the clams, which is a very good tile. Or rather, it makes it so the only way you can work the clams is by settling on the marble, which isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not ideal. If you settle 1E, you get two strong tiles in the cow + gems in your first ring, and it opens up the possibility of settling on the grassland forest that gets marble and clams in its first ring. Finally, settling tighter lets you share tiles, which means you need fewer worker turns. For example, if you have 8 population between two cities, that means you need 8 improved tiles for them all to be working good tiles. However, if they have overlap, you could make do with just 6 improved tiles, and alternate which city you whip so that you're usually hovering around more like 6 population. Or maybe you still improve 8 tiles, but now you can grow taller at times. There are other benefits, but those are the simplest ones.


* Your city marked "4city" is not in an ideal spot either. General rule of thumb: if you aren't Creative, your first few cities must have food in the first ring if at all possible, or at least a concrete plan to quickly pop borders (like founding a religion in it the next turn to make it holy). 4city here can do nothing but work weak tiles for a long time until it pops borders to get the clams, which means it can't help you grow further. You really want to consider moving it 1SE here to get the clams in the first ring, and that becomes even more true later:




You find copper right next to it too. This means you could have had copper + clams in the first ring, which would be a top-notch third or fourth city. It's especially important your first 3-4 cities be really fast starting, because it feeds into how fast you get your 5th-9th cities.


* I'd recommend doing way more chopping when you have that many forests, especially when you have a trait that can benefit from it early. For example, your Imperialistic trait gives you +50% production towards settlers. Chops count for this! So in the early game, chops towards settler are worth 30h - it's sort of like getting free Mathematics from the start. What you can do is deposit lots of chops into settlers, which means you spend less time building them and more time growing. This has some mild synergy too, because your increased happy cap due to Charismatic means you can grow taller and/or whip harder. Plus, if you chop all those riverside grassland tiles, you can get some cottages down which will help pay for your expansion.


Any questions? I think you had some challenges here that were unfortunate. The barbarian thing was a bit unlucky obviously, but also it was unlucky that you spawned next to pindicator, who I think is 1) one of the strongest players in this field, and 2) also Imperialistic, so he could race you to that northern city you wanted. Hopefully some of this helps though!

Omg Scooter, you took so much time in helping us so i really apreciate.

I understand your point. Our point was tring to get the monument fast so we get some happiness and also our second ring and that was the planing, also tring things like river bonus for 4 city and sharing cotages with capitol, that was our thinking, but i see that the point is getting early settlers and land and then make building that grant the happiness or any other bonus.

Our planification looked fine in my head, but then the city 5 was unable to grow, city 4 had nothing to grow until we took the monument and builded the boat whitch take too much. I see those 2 cities much better, but i dont see much else. Too many plains i think xD

[giraflorens]

Yes, I see what you mean. I will have to change the way to play with the IA. I fear to share many tiles between cities and I see that indeed it can be a great advantage. Another thing is that we did not chop so much cause we were waiting for Maths and Tataras to chop the units.

And one of the first errors we made was not knowing the great player Pindicator is !!! We innocently were planning to rush him with Axes and spears after having the Tataras!!! I just read his threat and it is impressive, the way he counts everything.

Thanks for your advice!

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Gira and vanrober, a good thread to read is Krill's pb46 thread, he explains all of his early game thinking, every decision he made is explained.

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...ight=krill

probably one of the most fascinating threads i've read.

[giraflorens]

Gira and vanrober, a good thread to read is Krill's pb46 thread, he explains all of his early game thinking, every decision he made is explained.

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...ight=krill

probably one of the most fascinating threads i've read.

Get it!!!  I may read it tomorrow.  Today I am shocked after reading Pindicator's thread.  I need to digest it!

[vanrober]

Gira and vanrober, a good thread to read is Krill's pb46 thread, he explains all of his early game thinking, every decision he made is explained.

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...ight=krill

probably one of the most fascinating threads i've read.

Im amazed, after 19 pages he started to talk about turn 1. So much information. It took me 2 hours to read and understand the pindicator's thread, so i might need 1 month to read and understand that thread.

Thanks GKC i apreciate your help!

[scooter]

Yes, I see what you mean.  I will have to change the way to play with the IA.   I fear to share many tiles between cities and I see that indeed it can be a great advantage.  Another thing is that we did not chop so much cause we were waiting for Maths and Tataras to chop the units.

Waiting for Mathematics can be a bit of a trap play in a lot of situations. It really depends on how far away you are from the tech.


Think of it this way. If you choose not to chop a forest, you are investing the time delay on those 20h for a return of 10h later. In theory, a 50% return sounds really nice, but the important factor is time. If you are 5 turns from Mathematics, delaying that chop might make a lot of sense, because a 10h return for waiting just 5 turns is pretty good! However, if you are 50 turns away from Mathematics, now a 10h return doesn't look so good. Those 20h can go to work for you now, getting you your next city faster, and in turn that next city might mean it gets you your next cottage and/or military faster, etc. Pretty soon you've gained a lot more than 10h by investing the 20h right now. The cities you settled sooner due to the chopping can be the same cities that help you build those units you were hoping to chop later, because now they were all settled several turns sooner, and therefore they've grown more and can whip more.


It doesn't mean it's always the right call to deforest everything in sight ASAP, but when you have as many forests as you guys had, you actually might be able to spend them both now and later. By my count you had 23 of them in your immediate area, so you could easily use a bunch of them fueling expansion and still have plenty left over for post-Math goals.