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Caustic Soda Wrote:Maybe I just missed it, but what did you end up deciding about Aristograrianism? I don't have base FFH installed right now, so I can't just dl your mod and doublecheck.
Right now, Financial only boosts tiles with 3 or better commerce, and Republic is an awesome civic for Cottage Economies (+2 hammers for final levels of cottages, +1 hammers for the 2nd to last level of cottages).
Still open to hearing ideas about how to deal with it.
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Sareln Wrote:Right now, Financial only boosts tiles with 3 or better commerce, and Republic is an awesome civic for Cottage Economies (+2 hammers for final levels of cottages, +1 hammers for the 2nd to last level of cottages).
Still open to hearing ideas about how to deal with it.
That sounds like a pretty heavy nerf to Financial and a pretty big buff for Republic. Adding that many hammers shifts Rep pretty close to the "one right choice" category. +1 commerce from Towns with Rep and +1 h from Towns with Theocracy seems a bit more balanced to me.
One possible solution to Aristograrian:
Change the -1h from farms to a flat -10% to production (Agrarian)
and
Decrease the distance maintenance bonus from 40% to 25% and increase the civic upkeep from Low to High (Aristocracy).
City States could use a bit of a buff as well, perhaps +50% to cottage growth?
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@The financial change: So neither sea tiles nor non-river Aristograrian farms give the extra +1c, correct? That would make rivers even more important and sea tiles even weaker, while making (grass) Villages+ comparatively stronger for Financial leaders. Is this what you want to achieve?
It seems to me that this change will end up making cottages/Republic clearly the best choice for financial leaders, just as Aristograrianism was beforehand. Also, it makes staying away from the coast even more attractive than it was before. For the Lanun, a sea tile with no resources would maximally provide 3f/2c, which is on par with a non-river Aristofarm. The coast would be even worse for everyone else, since 2f/2c is worse than grass Hamlet, much less something productive.
[Paraphrasing of the discussion in Selrahc's PBEM1 thread]
What Wildmana did to nerf Aristograrianism was to change Agrarianism to a flat + 2health, + 10% food. IMO, that is the core of the balance issues with Aristograrian, since vanilla Agrarianism gets you something for nothing on Grass, FP, Tundra and Ice (Ilians only). In Wildmana, Aristocracy farms only give +food once you get to Sanitation, which is markedly weaker than the immediate food boost in vanilla FFH.
Bobchillingworth
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Hmm, I thought the idea was to leave FIN / Aristofarms as-is, and only buff Republic (as has been done) ? Doing both together shifts the weight too heavily toward towns, at least for FIN civs.
I know we also discussed the possibility of a hammer / "industrial" econ using buffed windmills / watermills (which would need to be introduced, since I think they're missing from FFH), and workshops. I'd still like to see something along those lines implemented, as a third option between cottage / farm spam, but I don't know how to balance it or make it workable. Maybe have windmills around earlier (although at what tech, idk), give them an extra food and/or commerce, give the workshops one of their extra hammers earlier so that you don't have to wait until guilds for them to be truly worthwhile, and make watermills a powerful, but somewhat late-game option, with whatever their final maximized yields are from BTS.
Also an unrelated issue which hasn't been discussed much yet- palace mana. Most of them are fairly balanced, and if they aren't they at least make lore sense, but some of them don't make much sense for either reason. Why do the Mercurians have life and earth mana but not law? Why do the Eloheim have Nature? - I'd replace it with Sun. Overall, too many civs have nature mana... I think anyone who isn't the Clan or either of the Elven civs should have it replaced, since it hardly provides any benefit and most of the civs that have it don't really seem all that into hugging trees.
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Bobchillingworth Wrote:I know we also discussed the possibility of a hammer / "industrial" econ using buffed windmills / watermills (which would need to be introduced, since I think they're missing from FFH), and workshops. I'd still like to see something along those lines implemented, as a third option between cottage / farm spam, but I don't know how to balance it or make it workable. Maybe have windmills around earlier (although at what tech, idk), give them an extra food and/or commerce, give the workshops one of their extra hammers earlier so that you don't have to wait until guilds for them to be truly worthwhile, and make watermills a powerful, but somewhat late-game option, with whatever their final maximized yields are from BTS.
Windmills are pretty good as is (+1f/+1h/+1c) but I agree that they could come earlier in the tree. Construction perhaps?
Bobchillingworth
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Thoth Wrote:Windmills are pretty good as is (+1f/+1h/+1c) but I agree that they could come earlier in the tree. Construction perhaps?
Compare a grassland hill windmill to a fully-boosted mine on the same tile, though- a 2/2/1 mill vs a potentially 1/5/0 tile (with Arete and Blasting Powder). Even without any boosts, the extra hammer from the mine will be often worth more than a single food & commerce. A town (1/1/5) would be significantly better than the mill too, if you really wanted commerce (actually, with how the mod stands at present, the grassland hill town will be an awesome 1/3/5 tile). What if the windmills came with the default yields at construction, but then picked up an additional hammer + commerce with some later tech (engineering / machinery?) ?
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Bobchillingworth Wrote:Compare a grassland hill windmill to a fully-boosted mine on the same tile, though- a 2/2/1 mill vs a potentially 1/5/0 tile (with Arete and Blasting Powder). Even without any boosts, the extra hammer from the mine will be often worth more than a single food & commerce. A town (2/1/5) would be significantly better than the mill too, if you really wanted commerce. What if the windmills came with the default yields at construction, but then picked up an additional hammer + commerce with some later tech (engineering / machinery?) ?
Comparing base windmills with fully buffed mines or Towns isn't a valid comparison.
Windmills gain an extra +1h/+1c at Engineering turning the grasshill into a 2/3/2 (2/3/3 for Financial leaders) vs a 1/4 gunpowder mine (potentially 1/5 with RoK and Arete) vs a 1/1/5 Town (that spends a lot of it's life as a much weaker tile).
I don't often use windmills in FFH but that is mainly due to how late they are in the tree vs mines. If they came earlier I would (sometimes, depending on the map and the needs of my empire) build them more often.
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Caustic Soda Wrote:What Wildmana did to nerf Aristograrianism was to change Agrarianism to a flat + 2health, + 10% food. IMO, that is the core of the balance issues with Aristograrian, since vanilla Agrarianism gets you something for nothing on Grass, FP, Tundra and Ice (Ilians only). In Wildmana, Aristocracy farms only give +food once you get to Sanitation, which is markedly weaker than the immediate food boost in vanilla FFH.
The aristograrian nerf in wildmana certainly works, but I always disliked using Agrarianism in Wildmana--the straight +10% food just felt like such a bland, uninteresting boost.
As an alternative, what if riverside farms under Aristocracy simply didn't get the riverside commerce boost? This would make Aristograrisnism for non-Financial civs only as powerful as it is for ice-spreading Ilians--which I think most people feel is not overwhelmingly strong, with every grass farm maxing at 4f 2c. Financial Aristograrian economies would still be good--as strong as non-Financial Aristograrian economies currently are, at least pre-Construction--but not as ridiculous as they currently are.
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Mygdala Wrote:The aristograrian nerf in wildmana certainly works, but I always disliked using Agrarianism in Wildmana--the straight +10% food just felt like such a bland, uninteresting boost.
As an alternative, what if riverside farms under Aristocracy simply didn't get the riverside commerce boost? This would make Aristograrisnism for non-Financial civs only as powerful as it is for ice-spreading Ilians--which I think most people feel is not overwhelmingly strong, with every grass farm maxing at 4f 2c. Financial Aristograrian economies would still be good--as strong as non-Financial Aristograrian economies currently are, at least pre-Construction--but not as ridiculous as they currently are.
That comparison doesn't really make sense. Illians are weighing aristofarms on a 2f0c tile vs cottages on a 2f0c tile. Other civs would instead be weighing aristofarms on a 2f0c tile vs cottages on a 2f1c tile.
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Mygdala Wrote:The aristograrian nerf in wildmana certainly works, but I always disliked using Agrarianism in Wildmana--the straight +10% food just felt like such a bland, uninteresting boost.
As an alternative, what if riverside farms under Aristocracy simply didn't get the riverside commerce boost? This would make Aristograrisnism for non-Financial civs only as powerful as it is for ice-spreading Ilians--which I think most people feel is not overwhelmingly strong, with every grass farm maxing at 4f 2c. Financial Aristograrian economies would still be good--as strong as non-Financial Aristograrian economies currently are, at least pre-Construction--but not as ridiculous as they currently are.
I agree with you that agrarianism is a very boring choice in Wildmana, and something more interesting could be substituted. Howeever, as I wrote above I think that it is agrarianism not aristocracy, that causes the problem. I don't have any interesting alternatives off the top of my head, though. Fluffwise I've never really understood why turning your country into Poland-Lithuania does wonders for your economy, but that's not really the focus of this mod as I understand it.
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