[SPOILERS] Catherine of China

[plako]

T176

Collecting gold and waiting some more univesities coming up. I'll finish Economics after next turn and convert to Free Market and Slavery during the last turn of Golden Age. Main question is should I also convert to Vassalage, but I think we get another Golden Age in ~10T so we should be able to adopt new civics then. I also need to consider if researching Theology would be worth it.

Diplowise there is trade embargo cooking up against LP starting from T180. Rego, Mackoti and possibly Adlain won't join, but others should. I'm still trying to convinc Adlain.

[antisocialmunky]

Can we embargo Mackoti as well since he's LP's lackey at this point?

[plako]

Can we embargo Mackoti as well since he's LP's lackey at this point?

We could close borders, but I prefer not to arrange embargo. It is probably quite a bit harder to get other than Parkin Violationers to join pointing out too clearly who are against LP.

He has a unit on our lands scouting. I probably better ask him to leave and if he doesn't close borders.

[plako]

Some planning from the violators web pages:

It is time to put our minds together to see what we really can do and provide. Currently it looks like I would be getting Rifling on T187, Nationalism+Theology T191-T192 and Military Tradition ~T198. After that I'll be only building wealth and upgrading mounted units to Cavs and Berserkers/CKNs to rifles. This includes me firing another golden age on T186.

Unit wise my goal is to build/draft:
* 40 cats
* 60 CKNs
* 14*HA+17 Knights + 3 Cavs (All Knights will have 3 promos assuming I keep building only mounted units from my Heroic Epic city) that should on T200 mean ~15 cavs and if I can get enough funding maybe even close to 30 - It might be that these are the most valuable units for us because LP has probably Infantries and/or MGs so I could also switch hammers from somewhere else to produce Knights to be upgraded. Upgrading is just very expensive so there is a need for lot of funding to do the upgrades.
* 50 rifles
* 15 obsolete units for consuming collateral damage

There is room for more, if it seems nescessary based on what LP does or what we decide. If I can't get NAP with Rego not all of these will be available so it is pretty essential to get one.

Locke has promised 20 Redcoats + 20 on T210. Nakor/Gaspar: How many boats can you get and we probably should start trading units soon assuming you've got your 1st patch of Galleons ready? Luddite: What are your plans on T210?

Some speculation concerning the troops:
I would split them on 3-4 groups on T200 i.e. 1 land stack attacking from the south and 2-3 sea stacks. Luddite joins with a big land stack hopefully ~T210 in the north. The land stack that is big enough so that he just can't attack it profitably even with infantries. From my troops I would send pretty much everything that isn't needed on sea operations and city defense. If you've anything to send to augment that stack I would appreciate it. Even obsolete units can have their function so, if there are backline cities that doesn't need their military police warrior please send them to the frontlines .

Land operation is straightforward pure force attack with a goal of razing Silvestris and Leo in the south and after that possibly continuing north, if there is still sufficient power to do it.



The goals of sea stacks needs to be discussed. The major cities Evermore (christian holy city) and Magadan (Moai city) are on the east coast so it higly likely LP's sea forces are concentrated there. I'm pretty much suggesting that we focus most of our sea forces here to threaten the major cities. Taking out either Evermore or Magadan would be huge win for us. The main prroblem to me is that to threaten these cities we need to have been visible 1-2T before attacking (almost certainly 2T)



West coast doesn't have very juicy targets. Jubatus and Leo are the best



There is also Puma that has SoZ, but we need to go through Luddite's city to get there.



So what do you think? I would put 75% of the sea force to eastern sea and 25% on the western one and have just 2 sea groups.

[plako]

T177

Finally some military builds. I won't finish most of these immediately. I'll whip some of them to completion with overflow that I'll use when Rifling comes online for Rifles. Most of the cities should have CKN+cat built on the queue when Rifling comes in. I probably have a period of Vassalage before Nationhood, if It seems my research rate is sufficient without Bureacracy.

[plako]

T178

Last turn of Golden age. Economics was finished last turn and this turn it will be Gunpowder. I'll also get 8 universities up so I can start building Oxford University. Too bad it takes a very long time without stone and no golden age.

[plako]

T179

This time shot from Moogle/Adlain border. Adlain won't survive. He hasn't been properly preparing and even if he would have been 2-3 dogpilers would probably been too much in every case (not totally sure if Rego joins although it is higly likely).

I sent a reminder to embargo joiners and hopefully they all close borders next turn

[plako]

Next turn the borders are closed. It will be intresting to see LP's response on that. It will be a minor hit on his GNP, but at least we're trying something.

Fast dump of messages from the violators pages. This is harder than I thouhgt. Nakor/Gaspar don't seem to know what they want and Locke is too intrested in securing his position. I really can't blame them. I'm just glad they joined since they don't share land border with LP, but it is just a bit frustrating.

Locke:

Well Parkin only has 4 cities on west coast like you say. They are not great targets but he cannot build ships without coastal cities no matter how much tech he have. So I think that Nakor and me should try to raze those cities by ship: Pardus, Jubatus, Caracal, Concolor. If we have control of sea then we can strike anywhere on west coast at any time. Parkin cannot response because he will have no cities and no way to build ships. If those cities are gone we can land 2 spaces from Felidae for example.

There is no way my team can get units over to eastern sea for first wave of attack. Maybe in later attack but not turn 200.

Plako:

The main point is how we divide the boats between the seas. After that we need to decide troop composition in them. I think we should have enough good units to fill them up on both seas. Redcoats can be used on western sea and maybe also strengthen my land stack, if they don't make it in time on eastern sea.

So we need everyones opinion concerning the sea stacks and of course Nakor/Gaspars estimate concerning the amount of boats.

Concerning the sea targets I would try to hit the strongest ones first that would be Jubatus in the west assuming Leo will be sufficiently defended. One must also remember that, if we don't have sufficient sea forces in the east he will take control over the sea forcing me to keep way more units on my coastal cities there and therefore weakening significantly my land stack.

ASM (response to Locke):

I think you're probably going to have to support Luddite's front for the most part. It looks like we have the softer side to attack.

Locke:

Well we can put units wherever the group wants. It is easy to dump all redcoats up with luddite army in north. We dont even need Nakor/Gaspar galleons for that. But I think taking out Parkin coastal cities and controlling western ocean is priority #1. If we get control of that ocean then we can strike anywhere we want. And it is hard to defend against 6-move galleons or whatever we going to have. If we dont control that ocean then Parkin can build ships and threaten all of our cities. That would not be fun. I do not want to see Parkin destroyers invading my cities...

PLako:

Luddite has NAP until T210 so he shouldn't need Redcoats on T200.

In my opinion we should focus most of our sea forces on the best targets available. Even if he would lose every city on western coast he would still be in very strong position to win the game. He has 30 cities fueled by wonders so losing few irrelevant ones doesn't cost him much. On the other hand losing Evermore or Magadan would be a huge setbacks for him so I say we should focus on taking one of them down.

Futhermore on western sea you have way more cities than LP and should easily gain control with fewer number of boats initially when you're building more of them constantly. Eastern side is a lot more challenging and it would be very costly for me, if we give him control over it. I would need to be keeping my coastal cities heavily garrisoned that would also make it hard for me to progress in land.

We should start trading units soon and try to time them so that there aren't suspicious power drops in our graphs.

Luddite:

For me, my first priority has to be killing Mackoti. That war will start on turn 190, when our NAP expires. Originally I said I'd build cuirassiers, but then I decided that riflemen would work better. I won't have time to build very many in advance though, so the war may be a bit difficult. If Locke or Nakor/Gaspar could send a frigate up there, it would help me a lot, and maybe you could level it up to 10XP.

My best guess is that I'll need to keep building rifles/catapults and sending them against mackoti up until about turn 200, then I'll start sending units east to attack Parkin. As soon as I finish mackoti I'll send all those units east., but they probably won't arrive until after turn 210. On T210 I could get... maybe 40 rifles and 40 catapults ready to attack on that turn. A few mounted units as well, not sure how many. Hopefully by that point you guys will have already razed Conselor and Puma, but I could attack Uncia and push towards his capital.

Luddite (response to me):

This makes sense. What if we begin the war by having Nakor and Locke focus all their forces up by my border? They could immediately raze Puma, capture Lynx, and punch through to the other side. Parkin wouldn't have enough boats to stop them from razing most of his eastern cities. The reinforcements they build after the war starts can raze Parkin's western cities, while me and plako attack his noncoastal cities, forcing Parkin to keep building more land units instead of boats. Another advantage of attacking their first is that whatever units parkin sends there to defend will be useless for the first 10 turns of the war.

Plako:

I like the idea of starting the western front fight from the north. That should be quite a suprise, if we can keep our boats hidden and getting rid of SoZ would be really good to keep our happiness situation under control. Furthermore it ties units to opposite sides of his empire making defending a way more challenging.

I suspect we can't send anything through Ohara's without being visible to LP. It could go so that on T199 fleet moves 2N from Ohara's and tries to raze Puma at the 1st turn of the war.

Locke:

I still do not like idea to invade in north. That is very far away from our cities and Nakor cities. I doubt we can even get units up there in time for turn 200 attack. The whole plan is too ambitious. Do you really think we can capture and hold Lynx for use as a canal with just a naval force? When it is that close to Parkin's core cities? I think that is over optimistic.

Let me say this again. Nakor and my team have lots of cities on western sea. If Parkin gets smart and builds ships he can start threatening them and it will be really tough to defend them. I do not want to worry about losing cities in this war. That is why burning down all coastal cities over there should be first priority for Nakor and my team. We get those cities and then he cant build any ships. Then we have total security to send units to other fronts because we will be safe. Yes the western cities are crap but we should remove them first. It is better to go after a target we have a good chance of getting then go for very risky gambit in north.

Also I can help attack mackoti but then there will be no units to send after Parkin on turn 200. It is one or the other. Tell us what you want.

ASM:

How about burning down the Western cities first? It'll make draw forces in the west away from Luddite and then you can join Luddite's land push after securing your own cities. Basically start burning cities from south to north and link up around Uncie in about 214 and 215?

You're right we have to worry about securing naval superiority first and then worry about the land pushes. Mobility is one of our only advantages so preserving it would be ideal.

Also remember that we'd be putting a large amount of pressure on him in both the East and South so its entirely possible that Locke's coastal landings would be lightly opposed.

As for Mackoti, what do you think Luddite? Can you hold him?

Plako:

I'd like to hear Nakors or Gaspars opinion.

Giving up the naval superiority on eastern sea will become very expensive for me. I need a very good reasoning why to give units on western sea, if that doesn't prevent pillaging and blockading my cities on the eastern sea and even doesn't slow down LP much. If you think Galleon attacks are too expensive then at minimum I need a credible force of Frigates to not give free reign to LP. Nakor is building new ships probably constantly you should easily have sea superiority even if 1st batch of ships go to west.

Also without land attack we won't get naval superiority. If we don't push on land he can focus solely on boats and that is something we really want to avoid. He surely can build enough Frigates and Ironclads to prevent us using our mobility advantage.

There is also a minor danger we'll lose the canal route from east to west. It is vulnerable. That would basically make all sea efforts impossible.

I agree. We can't keep Lynx that is right it would need to be razed too assuming we get there.

Luddite:

I never meant you should KEEP lynx, I just meant that you could take it for one turn and move your fleet across to the eastern sea. If you raze it, there will be no way to get units across up there, and plako will be stuck dealing with all of the eastern sea (where most of parkin's cities are) by himself.

I guess you could also move units across in the south, through plako's canal cities. But then you'll have to deal with the war weariness from the statue of zeus until I can raze that city. If you just keep all your units in the western sea, then you'll only be able to attack 4 cities, which won't really hurt Parkin at all.

I also think you guys are underestimating the danger to your cities a bit. If he's under attack by 4 people at once, he's going to be able to counterattack. If he can do that, then we might as well just give up right now! But seriously, he's going to be focusing everything on just protecting his own cities, not building an invasion fleet and coming after us. And if he does try to build a fleet, he won't have destroyers yet, so we can just overwhelm it with numbers.

edit: how about this instead. Locke and Nakor begin the war by razing Leo, then moving up the western coast and burning all those cities. The fleet would reach my border on about turn 210. Then you could gift the empty galleons to me (I can pay you gold for them) and I'd fill them with my rifles, and we'd go across throough lynx to attack the eastern cities.

Luddite:

QUOTE (antisocialmunky @ Jun 23 2011, 12:38 PM)
As for Mackoti, what do you think Luddite? Can you hold him?

I can "hold" him easily, since it'll be a battle of knights vs. rifles. I just won't be able crush him in 10 turns, and I'm afraid that if I don't finish him off he'll be endlessly pillaging and blockading me. Having a frigate or 2 there would prevent him from blockading me though, and then i could focus more of my units against mackoti.

Locke:

QUOTE

(luddite @ Jun 23 2011, 06:41 PM)
edit: how about this instead. Locke and Nakor begin the war by razing Leo, then moving up the western coast and burning all those cities. The fleet would reach my border on about turn 210. Then you could gift the empty galleons to me (I can pay you gold for them) and I'd fill them with my rifles, and we'd go across throough lynx to attack the eastern cities.

I think this is a good plan. Get all western cities first because they are weak and then my team can have redcoats attack over land with luddite while nakor/gaspar send their ships over to east sea. Also keep in mind that my team get Rifling right around turn 190. We need to draft 20-25 units (across 5 turns) and move them to coast then load them into ships. It will be very hard just to get to Leo and be in place turn 200. I think we should start near Nakor city of Crossing II and work north from there.

We are attacking Adlain at start of next turn. I will keep you updated on progress of that war.

Plako:

This could work for the western fleet. However there is a good chance that Leo is above average protected assuming LP prepares for land invasion from south (I would be surprised, if he wouldn't do that). So I think it would be best to be ready to attack either Leo and Pardot during the 1st turn of war.

Also we need to get agreement on navy split. If nescessary I can build few triremes/galleys to be upgraded to Frigates/Galleons, although using that money for upgrading Knights to Cavalry and berserkers to rifles would be way better idea.

Luddite (response to Locke):

I probably won't need the help. My land invasion will be slow (just 1 tile per turn) and probably not encountering much resistance. I think it would be much better to put all your redcoats on boats (especially upgraded berzerkers if you'll have any) to try and raze one city each turn. If he focuses all his units fighting me then I'll be in trouble, but you guys would be able to raze all his cities really easily.

Luddite:

Plako you're building ships also, right? If Leo and Pardot are heavily defended then we can just skip them. Sail right on by, and take advantage of our mobility to attack the lightly defended cities first. Leo and Pardot aren't big priorities anyway, it's the cities with wonders that we really need to burn.

ASM:

Yeah, we aren't going for a kill on LP despite how satisfying it would be. We just need to make his civ wheelchair bound for the forseeable future.

Just burn enough cities and we'll do that.

Now that we have a general plan in the works for the west (40 red coats working north along the coast to join luddite), we need to figure out something for the east and the boat split.

I think our first move should be destroying LP's island outpost. We then take out atleast two of his coastal cities the 2nd turn of war (preferably the larger ones). I'm not sure how much risk it would be to split our naval stack into two, but I think since we declare on T200 that we should try to do a ton of damage to make your subsequent declares easier to do. Luckily, LP has no massive stock-pile of fast movers so we should not be at risk for him to counter attack our naval landings too badly.

Nakor

We are in the process of building ships. The first ones shall be ready soon'. Galleon's first, since we need to tech to Chemistry first for Frigates.

Where and when do you guys need the ships and how many do you think you need for the first attack force?

Plako:

Assuming 40 Galleons 20 Frigates on T200 in position. I would put 30+13 on eastern sea and rest to western, but at least Locke sees things differently.

What about 50-50 split. Locke needs 20 slots to transfer his troops. That would leave room for 40 units in the western sea and 60 units for eastern sea. How do we fill the rest of the slots?

CKNs will pretty much die every time used so maybe we should try to have 30 of them on both seas. Rest of the slots would be reserved for rifles+berserkers and cavs I think, but who produces/upgrades them?

I probably need more CKNs than I 1st anticipated. I'll start building them without promotions so that we get more of them.

Plako (response to Ludittes boat question):

I'm not building ships since I'm heading to Military Tradiotion. Of course also this could be discussed. I just think Cavs are more inmportant than few extra boats.

[plako]

T180

I've closed borders. I also whipped 10 CKNs/cats and switched production to something else to spare the overflow hammers to be used later and also to save some maintenance gold.

[novice]

T180

I've closed borders. I also whipped 10 CKNs/cats and switched production to something else to spare the overflow hammers to be used later and also to save some maintenance gold.

Nice trick.