[NO PLAYERS] Witnessing Democracy Inaction

[timski]

Core Traits:

1. Mortius formulates their plans very early and then exhibit considerable reluctance to change them. This would work well for a brilliant player, or in a solo game, but not so well for a middling player in a team game.

2. Mortius has virtually no understanding of the irrational human condition: To paraphrase, "why waste 20 turns on diplomatic chit-chat?" This grants Mortius partial immunity to Parkin's innate diplomatic bonus, making it hard to Parkin to influence their own team. Witness how the standard Parkin sequence of "great stuff ... well maybe ... actually, no" (in response to finding Pirates' border) had absolutely no impact on Mortius, who continued to play the move south, as Mortius had planned.

Suggested Assignment:

Mortius should be taking a back-room longer-term problem-solving role, because they are best at abstract/rational planning - mathematical strategy.

Mortius should not be pseudo-leading, because they have a tendency to ignore people who don't agree with them, especially those unable to provide rational evidence to support their case. And Mortius should ideally not be turn-playing, because ultimately a good turn player needs to be good at immediate decisions.

My guess is that Parkin knows this, but will have trouble reassigning Mortius from their assumed role.

[Sullla]

Except for the flip side: contact gives THEM the same information about YOU. If you know or suspect your team/civ will be less analytical in the cloak and dagger department, it might not be unreasonable to avoid contact given the choice. And I think Menagerie hasn't been doing much C&D; at least I don't see any obvious thread in their forum for it.

Heh, was travelling and couldn't respond to this. I'm not talking about C&D number-digging at all on this particular subject. I'm talking about the vastly more important process of setting up partnerships, formal and informal, in a full diplomacy game. We've seen innumerable times that the vagaries of first contact can wind up forming alliances that last for the rest of the game. Even if another team has made up their mind to be antagonistic, at least you still have a chance to get them to change their mind through talking, or moderate their hostility, or whatever. When you're not in contact and you aren't talking, then you have no influence on the diplomatic situation. That's purely negative in my book, assuming that teams are actually being proactive and trying to win, not sitting back and letting events happen to them.

Somewhat related: the two forums of the Pirates and Menagerie are my favorites to read, because of their various idiosyncratic mistakes. Somewhere, at some point, at least one of those trains is going to crash in epic fashion, and I want to be there to see the cars pile up.

[Selrahc]

I'm in full agreement. In a full diplo game, contact early.

As it stands, Pirates are possibly coming to terms with TEAM about a border agreement, leaving each free to prioritize settlements in the other direction. That is the kind of behaviour that is very predictable if the Pirates other neighbour isn't deigning to make contact.

[Sullla]

So the Pirates "team" is just oledavy playing turns by himself and everyone else chatting about diplomacy? Am I missing something? I think there's been one screenshot posted in the past two weeks there. Isn't this supposed to be a team game?

[Mist]

Well, we don't get to see any gchats happening, there is an odd chance they might coordinate behind the scenes. But yes, it's somewhat odd how they run things over in that corner. Not completely Dave's fault though, the team should push much harder to get involved.

[timski]

I wasn't entirely joking earlier when I referred Team Pirate as oledavy and their lurkers. Back when there were turn discussions, we saw oledavy play turns oblivious to team opinions. The only person inclined to question things (pindicator) is also rather too inclined to accept oledavy's will. Nakor specifically asked oledavy to agree to their diplomacy with TEAM, but is now floundering because much of what they agreed to requires oledavy to act on it: How can the team exchange information the team doesn't have? I doubt there is a lot of communication we are not seeing, and even if there is, chats won't involve the majority of the team. As a "democracy game", Team Pirate's effort is a train wreck.

The question is whether Pirate's approach will help or hinder? We've seen from Menagerie's "shall we contact the Pirates?" vote that too much democracy can be a hinderance. Unfortunately oledavy's style of autocracy doesn't engage their team's players in the game. In fact it doesn't even create a framework by which anyone other than oledavy can do anything - see Nakor above. If oledavy was a top-tier player, they might still do alright; but they're not: They probably have weakest play skills of any of the team captains.

In the next few weeks it will be interesting to watch their diplomacy: I expect them to repeatedly agree to things they then immediately fail to deliver on - because delivery requires a modicum of organisation - rapidly destroying any trust they manage to build with other teams.

[Thoth]

So the Pirates "team" is just oledavy playing turns by himself and everyone else chatting about diplomacy? Am I missing something? I think there's been one screenshot posted in the past two weeks there. Isn't this supposed to be a team game?

Well, we don't get to see any gchats happening, there is an odd chance they might coordinate behind the scenes. But yes, it's somewhat odd how they run things over in that corner. Not completely Dave's fault though, the team should push much harder to get involved.

They might be co-ordinating behind the scenes, but this:

Not much chit chat lately. What did we decide on for a build order?

Seems to bear out Sullla's observations regarding the team co-ordination of the Pirates.

A shame really. A lot of the fun of a team game comes from interacting with your teammates and kicking ideas around.

Not to mention that engaged team members can cover each other's weak spots while accentuating their own strengths.

The whole can be greater than the sum of the parts, but the team does need to work together in order to make it work.


Team Pirate....
um.
Guys, I think you're doing it wrong.

[Sullla]

I hope no one thinks I'm taking spiteful potshots at oledavy and the rest of his team. It's just that I've followed a lot of Civ4 team games in the past (many of them elsewhere, not at Realms Beyond) and I'm not sure I've ever seen this kind of team management before. It's common to see one player take over and do everything, usually after a couple of months have passed and the majority of the original team has disappeared. However, I've never seen a complete lack of any screenshots for discussion in the first 20 turns of the game, where 90% of the team literally doesn't know what's going on. It's very strange!

All the diplomacy reminds me why I dislike the full diplo games. Reading through hundreds of chat logs and draft email messages is not very interesting... :zzz:

[Thoth]

I hope no one thinks I'm taking spiteful potshots at oledavy and the rest of his team.

Not at all.

I think your observations are spot on. *

I like oldavy and enjoy his threads, but I think team Pirate isn't going to do very well in this game simply because they don't seem to have a team. Just a few people making sporadic posts while one or two players play the turns.

I can't see this as being a good recipe for success in a collaborative game.


Hopefully they'll prove us wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.






*queue some shocked gasps from the rest of the Lurker Gallery

It's just that I've followed a lot of Civ4 team games in the past (many of them elsewhere, not at Realms Beyond) and I'm not sure I've ever seen this kind of team management before. It's common to see one player take over and do everything, usually after a couple of months have passed and the majority of the original team has disappeared. However, I've never seen a complete lack of any screenshots for discussion in the first 20 turns of the game, where 90% of the team literally doesn't know what's going on. It's very strange!

Agreed.

The Pirates seem to be missing the "A" and the "T" from Team.

[BRickAstley]

All the diplomacy reminds me why I dislike the full diplo games. Reading through hundreds of chat logs and draft email messages is not very interesting... :zzz:

I would mostly agree, but there are a few gems in reports on here that are very well done and are presented in a way that's quite interesting.

That said, I'm definitely not vouching for this being one of them.