[SPOILERS] Small Wunders and Izzy of Inca: The fat lady sings

[WilliamLP]

It seems like the most obvious start is to build a worker first, go Hunting->Fishing, build a Quechua to size 2, then a WB when that finishes. Then there's time to squeeze out another Quechua while quickly growing to size 3. It turns out that if my settings are right we can get a settler out on turn 30 this way at size 3, working cows, sheep, and fish, with 2 Quechuas built. This is a solid start!

So even if we don't scout any wet grains, I think I like our capital here... I've seen much worse.

Maybe one day I'll be able to play in a game where any of the starting techs are usable in the starting position though!

[WilliamLP]

Also holy crap, Pindicooter sure know how to spam up a thread and attract viewers!

[WilliamLP]

I'd love to spam this thread up some more but I'm not sure there's that much to say about this start before the game gets going.

The only question that needs to be resolved really soon is where to move the scout? I'm still thinking SW-SW to reveal more river tiles. SE-S will crucially not see the river grass tile 3S2W of the settler. It will reveal some other southern tiles though.

With settling in place it seems obvious that fishing-first openings will be inferior, but I guess it's worth trying in a sandbox. The main real options then are settler at size 2, delaying fishing, or settler at size 3 or 4. But there's plenty of time to decide that since a worker and hunting are the obvious first turn choices.

Edit: In news that will surprise nobody, fishing first, and Quechua -> WB -> Worker -> Quechua -> Settler at size 3 puts us 2 turns behind the worker first opening, getting the settler at turn 32. This is because the first improvement (fish) happens later, the second improvement happens much later, and the earlier growth to size 2 doesn't make up for that. One thing going for this start is that a 1/2/0 tile works like a 1/3/0 tile (grass hill mine) with non-exp since we get a free hammer for every 3 when working on a worker or WB. But I think I'm safe to forget about anything but worker first as viable.

[WilliamLP]

Cities will be operas. Workers will be tenors. Non workers will be... non-tenors. I'll do a brief blurb about each opera as they come up.

But should I just change the leader name to "Old MacDonald"??




Holy cow! (sorry...) First, the cow 2W1S of the settler was ninja-edited. Otherwise our start wasn't strong enough maybe? It didn't seem that bad to me, but maybe everyone is getting really high food starts here.

Second, wet corn! This is the exceptional incentive I was talking about to settle elsewhere. 2S is looking awfully good right now. I'll sim a bit today to make sure but wet corn is one of the best tiles in the game, and it would give great river terrain for future cottages, so moving appears to be a slam dunk.

Third, you can see by the score that Plako already settled and got a tech from a hut! I hope it's not Astronomy.

[WilliamLP]

Making the moves that require very little thought:

Settling 2S, 1 Quechua, settler at size 3 comes out on T29.

Settling 2S, 1 Quechua, settler at size 2 comes out on T27.

I like the option of the settler at size 2, because the worker barely has time to finish improving the cow before the settler comes out anyway. Either of these looks better than settling in place.

Also, without the need for fishing the noob play of religion first is a real option! It delays hunting to create three idle worker turns. It would delay the settler to turn 28, building it at size 2. But we could switch immediately with SPI and get +1 happiness in the capital which is strong!

Now, can we risk religion second? Who else has Myst?

Jowy has Myst / Wheel. He'll surely need a food tech.

Suttree has Fishing / Myst, and has the potential to be Spain on a Lake ™. But he's not settling in place.

Plako has Myst / Mining, so he would need a food tech... If it weren't for that hut tech! So he's definitely a wild card.

[MindyMcCready]

Making the moves that require very little thought:

Settling 2S, 1 Quechua, settler at size 3 comes out on T29.

Settling 2S, 1 Quechua, settler at size 2 comes out on T27.

I like the option of the settler at size 2, because the worker barely has time to finish improving the cow before the settler comes out anyway. Either of these looks better than settling in place.

Also, without the need for fishing the noob play of religion first is a real option! It delays hunting to create three idle worker turns. It would delay the settler to turn 28, building it at size 2. But we could switch immediately with SPI and get +1 happiness in the capital which is strong!

Now, can we risk religion second? Who else has Myst?

Jowy has Myst / Wheel. He'll surely need a food tech.

Suttree has Fishing / Myst, and has the potential to be Spain on a Lake ™. But he's not settling in place.

Plako has Myst / Mining, so he would need a food tech... If it weren't for that hut tech! So he's definitely a wild card.

Hey, nice start! Wow, that's a crazy amount of food.

The religion happy is an even bigger boost with this much food. Its Hunting that enables the pastures right? So to get productive we need (Hunting + Fishing) plus (Mining + BW + Wheel) for early security.

AH still reveals Horses right?

That religion is really tempting, but getting those cows and sheep hooked up is vital. Anything that delays us hooking up all of those food resources is probably the wrong play IMO. Having said that, 3 idle worker turns is an acceptable cost for a religion. But is that all? The capital is at size 2 so we're working the corn but don't need the cows?

Using PB11 as a guide Polytheism fell on T63 and Monotheism fell on T74 but both of these are pretty late and not as many players in that game. So I'd think that we could afford to get Hunting first with minimal risk.

Sorry for the ramblings. My advice: 2S as per your intention. Hunting first.

[WilliamLP]

Thanks for the input! Please ramble away... Good point about the cross benefit between happiness and food. Yes, we hunt cows and sheep on this planet. My feeling is that settling 2S, we can delay fishing for a little while, and get at least a second really good food city up before claiming the seafood.

AH still reveals horse, and also allows camps like hunting in BTS.

Sooner rather than later we certainly need Mining + BW, and Wheel + Pottery (+ Fishing first probably), for cottages and terraces. I'm not sure which of those series is more important - BW feels like the more orthodox play, but then a few things about it are nerfed. Slavery isn't as good and archery is quite a bit cheaper, and the hunting prereq is an essential tech so archery is never out of the way for anyone.

The bottleneck in the start is worker turns. The worker comes out in 10 turns (which is fantastic!), but then takes a turn to get to the corn, five turns to farm it, then a turn to get to the cow, then 4 turns to pasture, then 2 turns to the other cow, then 4 turns to pasture. And so the second cow isn't improved until turn 28. That's why I think there isn't much point in growing to size 3 before a settler - the third pop point isn't worth much before the second cow is improved. And the city grows really fast - only three turns from size 2 to size 3.

Religion first would delay both of those cows for 3 turns, but would make the second one come online the turn before the capital would grow to size 3. So what's lost (assuming we build a settler at size 2) would be three turns of working the first cow unimproved instead of improved. Plus the cost of whatever else gets delayed of course. All this being said I'm well aware that religion first is considered a noob play, probably for good reason. I'm probably leaning to Hunting first too.

While we're looking at data:

PB8 (RBMod, many common players): Buddhism - T48, Hindu - T45, Judaism - T67
PB9 (Tech Trading): B - T54, H - T45, J - T69
PB12: B - T16, H - T57, J - T67

We're the only SPI leader with Myst - so for others a beeline doesn't give immediate payback because of the anarchy. But, that's an argument that we should be able to wait, I guess.

I think you can consider me talked out of Meditation first. We'll see what happens between now and when it's time to choose a second tech though.

Oh btw, let me know if either of you want the sandbox save here. Plunder you may know you need Windows to load the mod, so no worries to just comment from the thread.

[WilliamLP]

Moved the settler:




There's an argument for actually taking another turn to settle SW, but I don't know if I'd do it. The pros are more river tiles, the corn farm and subsequent worker actions will be a turn earlier to offset the move, and the original amazing PH site is intact for city number two or three. PH sheep is not as good a third tile as grass cow though.

Any opinions on where to move the scout? I'm thinking NW-NW, then sweep out NE to the coast, then circle back around to cover a big radius around the capital. I could also see NW-SW to circle around that way, and maybe get a contended hut or two a little earlier.

[Plunder]

What about settle one SW and second city goes on the spot where the first settler spawned? ^.^

[WilliamLP]

Well I can say I've played many worse starts than either would lead to! Settling right now we get the second settler on turn 27 which is blazing fast.

I just tried to sim it, and I think 1SW doesn't work out quite as nicely, just for micro reasons. Losing the 1 turn of city production (probably 3 food), crosses the point where it pushes everything back one turn, so the settler comes out on turn 28 instead of 27. It also loses a turn of early research delaying the palace, and is a capital that won't grow quite as quickly when sharing off the corn. (I've lately become quite sold on capitals with an amount of food that seems ridiculously too high. ) So I now don't think the benefits are worth it.

I also would prefer a second city that shares corn if possible, so we can delay fishing a little while longer. Fishing is (sort of) on the way to Pottery though.