[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[LiPing]

Heh, well, I am not going to be useful in that regard by the time I come back (and I realized this before I was going to go, which is really why I didn't want someone to temporarily do things for me and hand it back ), unless you have decided to note down every score increase for every turn since turn 17 and for the entire period I'll be away... leaving tomorrow, by the way.

So... sorry, but my usefulness to the Emperor is reaching an end, and you're likely going to be on your own

[Whosit]

Maybe I will make those records. Civstats should be quite useful in that regard. All I need to do is start another Excel spreadsheet (I have one dedicated to Korean production right now). There's little I can do while you are away, but it would be foolhardy not to take steps that would retain a valuable asset, yes?

Anyway, here's the final version of the message I sent off to Korea:

Dear Broker33 and plako,

I have received your latest offer and I thank you for your willingness to consider Rome's position. The agreement is looking very good. However, I would like to ask for just one more change. I hope that it will not be a problem.

I have a better understanding of the lands surrounding my capital now than I did when we began negotiations, especially regarding the area to the northwest of Koumakan. There I have found a potential city location that I believe is critical for Rome's territorial integrity. I would like to stress that this city location is not in the disputed area; it is north of the river. The one problem is that its location conflicts with the location 1NW of the Silk that we have proposed for you to settle.

Now, I realize that when I settle at this location it would put you in an inconvenient position, to say the least. Therefore, I hope that I can make some additional concessions that may even things out. At the moment, Rome is small and has little to offer, but here are my thoughts:

*Rome will gift you a resource as soon as we have trade routes.

*Rome will agree to NOT settle the designated location north of the Crabs.

*It should go without saying, but aside from this city, Rome will not expand any further to the west. Future expansion will be to the east.

Again, I apologize for forcing us to revise the treaty once again. I regret that I cannot put more on the table at the moment, but if you can think of anything else for Rome to offer, please let me know. I hope that you do not feel that Rome is cheating you. Rather than settling this city without your knowledge, I bring this issue up in advance in order to deal with Korea in good faith. Hopefully we can come to a satisfactory agreement.

Best regards,

Whosit, Dictator of Rome

I expect them to be livid, but perhaps I will be surprised again. I'm still reasonably confident that any outcome will be favorable to me at this point. I do not expect Korea to break the NAP themselves, though I will not count on that for protection. Time, in the short run, favors me, I think.

Unless, of course, there is no Iron to be found. But I think I could manage with a stack of Axemen. Worst-case scenario, I choke their capital, pillage their tiles, and park my stack outside the city walls, preventing them from doing anything useful while I increase my lead.

[LiPing]

You've kind of touched on why personally I don't like NAPs much. Even if I have them, I still feel obligated to build the proper amount of units (I feel that NAPs are not a reasonable excuse for bad play) for self defense, so I don't really feel like I gain anything out of them.

P.S. - I'm getting the impression you like axemen a lot , please consider less axemen, and more spears, axes are good against AIs and all, but not as good against humans (who tend to make more fast units, and use them effectively), and the axes become obsolete more quickly than the spears, which have a longer effective operating window.

[Whosit]

You've kind of touched on why personally I don't like NAPs much. Even if I have them, I still feel obligated to build the proper amount of units (I feel that NAPs are not a reasonable excuse for bad play) for self defense, so I don't really feel like I gain anything out of them.

P.S. - I'm getting the impression you like axemen a lot , please consider less axemen, and more spears, axes are good against AIs and all, but not as good against humans (who tend to make more fast units, and use them effectively), and the axes become obsolete more quickly than the spears, which have a longer effective operating window.

I disagree. I think NAPs can be very useful tools. In this particular case, however, I think both parties know that war is only a matter of time, so there's no base for trust to develop. Obviously, I agree that NAPs don't excuse unwise decisions, but I think that all but the most untrustworthy people are likely to honor a NAP, or at least let it dissuade them from backstabbing me immediately. Negotiating a NAP, or any treaty, may also make a player more inclined to deal with you in the future, I think. Getting a history of fair trades and trust can be helpful

I don't have a particular love of Axemen, but they're a generally good unit if the opponent has no horses. Of course, I intend to mix some Spears in, though if there is no evidence that Korea has horses, I won't make them a priority. Praetorians would be better than either, of course.

[LiPing]

In Pitboss1, Athlete broke an NAP, if i personally was playing in this game now i wouldn't treat him different to any other player because of it.

In that scenario, he had his reasons as he couldn't sit by as a long term ally was destroyed. In your case, you have your reasons:

you've taken over a game where you are playing as Shaka of Rome and you have an enemy literally on your doorstep. If the roles were reversed and Broker/plako had taken over the rome game- do you think they would have decided to be peaceful?

Don't forget, if they go out they can then read this thread and see your logic. I think you worry about reputations too much. Best way to improve your reputation is to win the game in my opinion.

Actually, I am very curious what everyone thinks about this sort of thing (although, I do not think that many people will say it outright ). Personally, I wasn't going to treat him any differently either (for example, using my silly AI-like diplo chart, I won't assign him any (-) for having dumped his NAP in a previous game) but then at the same time I felt like giving Mortius (+) for the strength of his objection against it, and Broker some (+) for having gone out of his way for his alliance when it wasn't in his best interest to do so.

I guess... it's almost like, I am expecting people to not follow small agreements, so I don't hold it against them, but favorably view people who do keep them anyway? Yeah. I dunno really.

[shadyforce]

I have respect for Whosit for taking it on the chin and following the agreement even though breaking the NAP was clearly tactically superior. I also respect Liping for her more ruthless approach. Lets face it, Rome would be in a better position if Liping was at the helm on that critical turn because you'd be +1 worker and Korea would be crippled if not eliminated. And I also respect athlete for making the tough decision to break the NAP to come to the aid of his ally. All three of those are traits to be admired. I guess it depends on what type of player you want to be and how you want to play the game. Everyone has their own style.

But I think the lesson to be learned is... Don't sign agreements you may not be able or willing to keep. In general, if a person finds themselves in a situation where they are tempted to break a NAP or other agreement, then to be honest it serves them right for signing it in the first place.

And lets not kid ourselves, no matter how right tactically a person is to break a particular agreement, they still paint themselves as someone with whom agreements are questionable if the wind changes direction and that is not something that people look for in allies.

[LiPing]

Oh, they were allied. I didn't even realize that, you are right, alliance I think is something a lot more serious than NAP, and inviolate, so I should actually give him (+) for that too . I agree also, that justified betrayal is worse than chaotic betrayal.

However, I still do not understand this whole NAP culture thing. I just... really don't get it, people seem to like them a lot and value and treat them as if they would 100% reliably work, but at the same time no one seems to want them to be "forced" to work (with repeated 10T war-peaces or demand-gifts), I find it very confusing. The impression I am getting, is that other people treat absence of one as intent to attack, while I'm considering reluctance to have it enforced to mean that no one is serious about them in the first place, and just looking for opportunistic shots - if you had every intention of keeping your word, then other than some trade route income loss [and then it would have cost something for both parties, so I'd consider them more likely to follow it, since there is something in-game actually invested, and if you broke it later, or intended to break it, it's to me like having wasted the investment] for the period where it's not possible to trade anything, I do not see why anyone should balk at the in-game enforcement at all, and it guarantees a 10 turn window of notification that the other person would be intending to break/cancel anyway (in the time when gifting money becomes available).
Well, that's my mystification about it all

Okay, back to the game; I am leaving now, so here is my last minute advice.

When Korea gets Bronze Working, it will show up as a +6 score increase and a 8000 soldier point increase, so it should be noticeable.

After that, I suggest keeping track of their population (score increases of around 3 will indicate growth) and comparing it against their food production and hammer production graph, and watch closely - changes like +1F+1H, +0F+2-3H, -1F+4H with no population increase would all indicate they have copper, as would a population increase followed by +any amount of food and +more than 3H.

[Whosit]

Korea had a +6 score increase last turn, but I don't think their power went up (soldier points are reflected in power, yes?). So probably a new tech of some kind. I'll definitely keep an eye on their hammers.

@shadyforce: I'll just come away from your comment assuming that I have your respect. Heh. But, yeah, I don't plan to sign agreements I don't intend to honor. As far as I was concerned, I inherited a signed NAP from LiPing, so I felt obligated to honor it.

LiPing: Dunno how to explain "the NAP culture," especially since I have only started playing. I suppose some people are just more comfortable with a "formal" peace treaty in place. My only explanation for the "horror" Broker and plako had for the war/peace idea is that you either did not explain it clearly, or that it's so unusual that they couldn't understand it.

Again, all I can say is that it might be the same reason why real nations sign treaties; they're probably not comfortable leaving it at "you leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone." Also, Civ multiplayer usually involves taking out everyone but yourself, it seems, so that could be another factor?

[Whosit]

Hmmm. It seems that I may have cause to worry now.

Unfortunately for me, the graphs and demographics seem to be a turn behind. Korea did indeed get a tech (the 6 point increase) and their power has increased dramatically. I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's a good chance it was Bronze Working.

And now, my spies seem to indicate they have 59 hammers towards something, up from 24. Double checking the number of turns it has been, that would have been just enough time to finish a chop. Damn, they beat me to BW by 6 turns or so. And I got a curt reply from them regarding my last offer. Didn't like it, obviously.

I did explore a bit more around those hills, and I found a marble resource to the north, beyond some peaks. Nice, but might not be worth moving the site north for, as I don't intend to build many wonders right now.

I'll know in a few more turns where the Copper is. If they have some, and I won't have some, I'll have to change my tune quite quickly, or pray that I can find Horses or Iron.

It's possible they were working on an Axeman, after all, though I'm not sure if they have the Wheel for roads.

Lost connection to the game, and can't get back in, so I'll have to finish my turn tomorrow. Very worrisome, indeed. Ha ha ha. Shall Rome fall due to its hubris? Or "honor," from so many turns ago? Hmmm.

I'll see if I can wait the 3 turns I need before responding, to see where I stand regarding metal. I suppose the only good thing about them getting BW before me is that I can change my Settling plans to pick up Copper wherever I find it, in case the hill site was going to lack any.

*Sigh* You lurkers must have been snickering, knowing this whole time, eh? Ah, well.

The hammer increase still puzzles me . . . . It went up 35. I know they had 5 production, but aren't forests worth 20 hammers before Math? Or could they have possibly gotten Math already? Can't be, they can't have Writing yet . . . I'll have to check when the game comes back, but that can't be right. I checked several turns back, couldn't trade open borders, so it shouldn't be possible to get Writing, Math, and BW in less time than it takes me to just do BW. Hmmm. *Sigh again* No use thinking about it. I won't know exactly what they build, though I can try to guess if their power increases again.

OK, enough of that. Sleep time now, check the server tomorrow. My life will probably become exciting and brief.

[Whosit]

OK, had a chance to reconnect and look at things again (and all but one other player have taken their turn! I hope things move swiftly this weekend so I can see Copper in 3 turns) and I think I know what happened.

Korea does indeed have Bronze Working and they must have switched to Slavery already. Hmm. I must have missed the announcement. I need to get better about checking the log every turn.

They whipped Seoul. It's at 1 pop now instead of 2, and they lost 3 points (which I know equals 1 pop). I seem to recall hearing that 1-pop is worth about 30 hammers on normal speed, so that would account for the increase. Did they whip for the overflow? I'm reasonably certain that they cannot have Copper yet. So it's probably still the Work Boat. Why 1-pop whip a Work Boat near completion? Silly question, to maximize the overflow, I'm sure. With their wheat and a seafood resource, they can grow back fairly quickly. I wish I knew how much food was in their box, though. I need to look up how much food it takes at each size to grow, or at least play in a sandbox and jot down those numbers.

Yes, things'll be getting interesting around here. Oh! Picture!



I did some fog gazing, and the tile 2N of the marble is coast. Possible isthmus there. I'll have to scout further, later (don't want Rumia going too far right now), but it could be a good spot to settle and block off a land-route.

Edit: New turn started, Korea increases score to 66, so they grew back to size 2 already.

T30 is done, for me. Gold mine finished, so my tech rate should see a very nice boost. Unless Korea also has a valuable tile (aside from the furs, which I don't think they are working), I should be able to get an edge on them.

Rumia explored further north and found this:



That's a sea to the north, as it does not provide fresh water. Rumia will return south, now, to fog bust on the hill, but that area may be worth investigating later. If that proves to be a large body of water, it may be worth building a city there. The sugar could be nice, though I'd have to settle ON it to get Fresh Water, too.

That range of Peaks is interesting. I could settle a city between them to block off a land route there, but it's probably not worth it unless I find some resources up there. The only thing going for that spot right now is a bunch of grasslands that could be cottaged.

Edit 2: Did another take in the "sandbox." I think I will revolt to Slavery as soon as I am able to. It should only delay the Settler by 1 turn. I think, now, it would be safer to have the option to whip out troops if necessary.

Edit 3: I can tell from the civstat scores that the athlete4life10 of the Ottomans 2-pop whipped something (score decrease of 6). It seems that I am quite late to the Bronze Working party. I'm going to guess that everyone got furs in their BFC, so I'm sure many are working that tile for the extra income.