[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[Whosit]

By the way, are you taking Pre-req bonuses and bonuses for contacts with other civs who have the tech into your tech time? It is very possible that the tech times could go down if Korea researches a tech you want, or if you meet someone that has it. That could allow time to revolt to slavery.

No, I'm not factoring those in, as neither are factors that I can predict, so I won't base my plan on them. If I do meet someone else, or if Korea does research something I'm going for, that would of course be helpful. I'm probably getting a bonus on Mysticism because Korea starts with it, but I don't think it is very significant.

The plan I put together is based on my sandbox exercises, which does lack a Korea, but it should still be fairly accurate in terms of prerequisite bonus for my own techs.

[Whosit]

Ah-haaa . . . I think I've finally pieced together what Korea has been doing the last few turns. They've added about 10 or 11 hammers to production, and have 69-70 hammers invested, which is consistent with a Settler. But now I know how they got so much.

They did indeed whip the Work Boat, and got about 29-30 hammer overflow. That went into a Settler. On the next turn, they switched to something else and began growing to size 3 again. That would explain the 2 turns with blanks in the Espionage screen.

Then, on turn 34 or so, they chopped into the Settler and worked it a turn, getting it from 29 hammers invested to 59. Now they they worked it again and have 69 invested. They are most likely working the Wheat, Crabs/Clams, and a grassland hill mine. It's possible they have a Fish, but I'm not sure about that just yet. I don't think so, anyway.

Now, can they beat me? So long as they do not chop again, I don't think so. I'm not sure that they can beat me WITH a chop. I'll know next turn. I think that they would need to have chopped again THIS turn to get it out ahead of me, but I won't know until next turn if that's the case.

I doubt they do, as records suggest they just finished a chop on T33 at the earliest, and if they are chopping again, it'll take another turn to finish, I think. Maybe 2, not exactly sure on the math. It'll take about 3 turns to finish slow-building it. I think that it's going to be close, but I should be able to. The question, then, is if they Whip it. They CAN 2 pop whip it. But they obviously haven't done that this turn (and they finished their turn). If they 1-pop whip it next turn?

Hmm.

My Settler completes on T37.
If they whip on T36, it will complete on T37.

If that's the case, and I will keep an eye on their production, then it will be a straight up race to the finish. I imagine that we will both employ tricks like waiting to end the turn, or perhaps allowing the turn-timer to run down if it is to our own advantage.

Man, I hope I have the time to be at my PC over the next few turns.

Well, if they DON'T whip it next turn, I think I can beat them by a turn. If it looks like they whip it out, I'll have to make a slight change to my plan . . . . I may end up chopping out the Silk forest completely, which would let my Settler get to the Hill a turn earlier, at the cost of a lot of hammers and getting the Monument on schedule.

Well, the way the turns are flying by, I may see what they do tonight, or possibly tomorrow morning.

You lurkers know exactly how far along they are. I suppose I'll end up seeing how close my estimates are to the truth. I'm real glad I learned how to do this counting. I imagine they are doing the same to me.

Now, the other factor is if they have the Wheel and if they have made any roads. Hmm. Based on my power chart, it looks like they were flat-lined aside from the dip and resurgence for whipping and regrowing. Yeah, the Wheel is worth 4000 soldier points, which I imagine would show up in power. They got a tech a couple turns ago, but their power has been flat, so it wasn't the Wheel, I think.

Did they learn the wheel earlier? It's possible, but I don't THINK so. Anyway, that's about all I can puzzle out. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on things.

[MWIN]

Isn’t it better to move early in the turn because of double move rules?

I imagine that we will both employ tricks like waiting to end the turn, or perhaps allowing the turn-timer to run down if it is to our own advantage.

[Whosit]

Isn’t it better to move early in the turn because of double move rules?

Oh, yeah, right! Heh heh, I forgot about that Settler moving rule for a second. I'd better go review all the rules so I don't end up cheating by accident. Here they are so I won't forget again.

The RBP1 revised double-move rule

(a) - All settler moves that result in ending a turn in neutral territory must occur 9 hours (in-game) after the last movement of that settler, if applicable.
(b) - REMOVED
© - During a war all units in enemy or neutral territory, and all units in friendly territory that are capable of attacking or defending versus enemy units at any point during the turn must wait at least 9 hours following any previous move before they may move again.
(d) - When in doubt, act in good faith.

Although, I could still, say, move the Settler early, but not end turn, and either let the timer run down or wait 9 hours or whatever to end turn and move again . . . there are still tricks, though I don't want to act in bad faith. So long as they don't whip this turn (and it is a new turn, by the way) I should be OK.

Got a little careless with Warrior moves. I moved Rumia to cover the Workers, going to move Cog up to the next forest. Hopefully no Animals will spawn, but it's always a worry. The Settler SHOULD be safe on it's first move out of my territory, as I have view of all squares in a 2 tile radius, I think.

Edit: Wow. I'm so excited, I could burst into bouts of "OMG! OMG!" Korea has ended turn and does not appear to have whipped their Settler. I have double checked my math, and unless they have a second Worker (I'm very sure that they do not), they should not have been able to have finished another forest chop this turn. That means I'll have my Settler out of the gate a full turn ahead of them! Unless they pull off a cheap double-move, I should get my spot.

[novice]

Nice detective work, Whosit. A for effort. I won't comment on the accuracy

Barbarians cannot spawn within 2 tiles of a unit, regardless of tile visibility. Not sure if that is relevant in this case. Need screenshots

[Whosit]

Nice detective work, Whosit. A for effort. I won't comment on the accuracy

Barbarians cannot spawn within 2 tiles of a unit, regardless of tile visibility. Not sure if that is relevant in this case. Need screenshots

Thanks! I'm sure I'll learn my accuracy in a turn or two.

Here's the picture in question. Note the circled tile.



While I know that no Barbarian can spawn there, suppose something like a wolf spawns 1E of it. I still lack visibility, so it could 2-move and take the Workers if undefended. Most everywhere else, I had both visibility and difficult terrain to give me advanced warning of threats, but I noticed that one chink in the visibility armor and wanted to take no chances.

[MWIN]

When do you get the chop hammers, at the end of the turn? What happens if your chop is complete (and walk on grassland) and then settle the city on the same turn? Will the chop hammers go wasted or go to new city?

Edit: Never mind, you can't settle on the same turn anyway...

[Whosit]

After the madcap weekend, figures that the new turn doesn't start until I'm no longer able to play today. I'll have to get it this evening.

I was going to reply to Broker and plako, but I forgot the password for my RB e-mail account, so that will also have to wait until I get back home. So I'll write a draft right now since I've earned a few minutes of free time.

Here's their last letter, for my own reference.

Dear Whosit,

I obvivously would prefer keeping original deal that you in practice suggested few turns ago. However I'm willing to negotiate. I would like to see our NAP to be prolonged until turn 120 and your city moved 1E. It would still claim the cows and would actually be better fit with your capital's BFC. This would allow us 2 cities between your capital and ours i.e.
1) 1W from the northern silk
2) Hill NW from the crab

If you provide us gold or some other happy resource, I would be very happy to offer silk to you.

Best regards plako and Broker33

So, let's see. Having just looked it over again, I noticed that they've changed their silk location to 1W of the silk (just where I want it!), so it wouldn't conflict with my hill location. Perhaps a typo, but I shall leverage it!

Dear plako and Broker33,

Good to hear from you again. I apologize that I could not reply more promptly, but it is a very busy time. I hope that you understand. However, the delay has given me time to consider the latest offer. I will address it point by point.

*NAP. As I have expressed before, the Imperium does not desire an extension of the NAP. We trust our Korean neighbors not to attack us and, even if you do, we trust our own army to defend our territory. I do not desire hostile relations between our people, but I simply do not desire to sign long-term agreements at this time.

*City placement. I've taken another look at your offer, and I actually do not believe that there is any conflict with my planned settlement. I can settle on my desired hill location, and you will still be able to settle 1W from the north Silk, as well as on the hill NW of the crabs. All three cities should be able to coexist and Korea will control the entire border region, which I do not think is a bad deal for you.

*Open Borders. This is the one point on which we have had no disagreement. We declare Open Borders as soon as one party has learned how to Write, and up to two observers may enter the other's territory. These observers may be either Scouts or Warriors.

*Trade. The Imperium is open to any fair trades that could be made once we have trade routes with Korea.

I believe those were all of the points we have discussed. We seem to be in general agreement aside from the NAP issue. Unfortunately, it is becoming hard to see how we can reach a suitable agreement on that issue considering how we each strongly desire opposite outcomes. Do not be mistaken. I am not saying that I will never sign another NAP, I just do not believe that the time is right. I am reasonably confident that we both understand the damage a war could do to us both at this point in time, and I consider that deterrent enough.

So, placing the issue of the NAP aside, are the remaining issues ones that we can reach an agreement on? Please let me know as soon as you have reached a decision.

Best regards,

Whosit, Ruler of the Interim Imperium

I won't be able to send this until tonight, so if any lurkers have comments, feel free to let me know. I don't think I will be harmed by this agreement (assuming the 1W of Silks was not a typo), and the original NAP should still expire without me having to announce it. If I get Iron Working on schedule (T60) and with the Settler I should have then, I bet I can start building Praetorians in 5-10 turns, depending on how far away the Iron is.

Then it's coitens for them!

Psst. Don't . . . don't tell them that.

[zakalwe]

Your message looks good to me in the sense that it clearly states what you will and will not agree to.

I guess if you want to be sneaky you could try to tempt them into some kind of settling race, hoping they'll overexpand and not focus so much on building units. I.e. rather than ceding both of those in-between locations, perhaps suggest that they'll get the northern one and then you'll race for the southern one (but it won't be your second city). Just a random idea.

You shouldn't give concessions too easily, if you feel you have the upper hand. If they want both of those city sites you could ask for compensation in the form of a military unit or a worker, for example.

If you want to stall the negotiations it shouldn't be a problem, just keep making demands/suggestions. Seems like they're not really willing to budge a lot so either you get lucky and they actually accept some sort of concession, or the talks keep dragging out and you won't have to commit to anything.

[Kyan]

No idea if you sent this already, i only just got in from work and catching up.

I would remove the word 'hill' from your reply. In terms of 'i can still settle my planned hill site'. I don't think you already mentioned to them it was on a hill and theres a possibility they dont have visibility on your site. (correct me if i'm wrong as im not totally as up to date as yourself).

No point revealing military related information to someone you're about to go to war with. i.e. production and defence boost in your new city makes it sound more militaristic than you need to be.

Hope this makes sense, been a long day heh.