[SPOILERS] Yossarian blames Caledorn

[YossarianLives]

I decided to send Aivo a quick email asking for peace, after all. He responded pretty quickly with a positive message, in which he proposes a couple paths to peace:

1) I get most of the land you've captured back (say, the cities in the north).
2) I get Nobamba back and you will aid me in conquering my western neighbours, the Team Ponies.

If you can think of other options, I'm ready to listen.

I'm thinking of offering him Nobambo + all the units inside the city for peace. Additionally, I would ask for a NAP to T175 (that should be enough time to give us a large enough tech advantage to move in for round 2 ) and the right to settle the city of his that I burned down. I would also be willing to offer resource trades / gifts, and concentrating my EP's against Classical_Hero for a few turns so I can feed Aivo info on what Classy is researching. What do you guys think?

Full email exchange is below the fold for any interested parties.

Hi Aivoturso and Bowsling,

I hope all is well with you. Just wanted to give you notice that I have declared war on you in game. Best of luck in the upcoming conflicts.

Take care,

Yossarian

Hi Aivo,

Nice defense around Alcatraz! Are you interested at all in peace?

Yossarian

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the compliment. Any chance for peace depends really on conditions. As you can probably guess, I do not have much to lose. Living in peace with such a crippled empire I have at moment simply isn't interesting at all. I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory than make a peace and just keep pressing end turn without any chance to impact the game. So a peace is possible, but only if we can find a solution that you can accept and that would put fun back to my game.

What I need most is some good developed land and resources. Some starting points that I would be willing to consider are:
1) I get most of the land you've captured back (say, the cities in the north).
2) I get Nobamba back and you will aid me in conquering my western neighbours, the Team Ponies.

If you can think of other options, I'm ready to listen.

BTW, if we can find a mutual ground, I'm still willing to cooperate with you guys in the long run. I do not harbor any ill feelings as I believe your attack was not personal but just a strategic decision.

- Aivo

Hi,

Just to clarify, I consider either of the options 1) or 2) an acceptable basis of the peace treaty. If you can accept either, or you can come up with something else I can accept, we can start discussing details.

- Aivo

[Cheater Hater]

To confirm, Team Ponies=classical_hero? What state are they in--how much do you think you can afford to send in that battle--mainly the remnants of our BowAivo invasion force?

[YossarianLives]

To confirm, Team Ponies=classical_hero? What state are they in--how much do you think you can afford to send in that battle--mainly the remnants of our BowAivo invasion force?

Correct, Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony = Classical_Hero.

I am probably not willing to send any forces against Classical_Hero directly. Hopefully Aivo will consider me gifting the remnants of my invasion force to him as sufficient aid. If I DOW Classy and actively join a war, then I would need to send my army through Aivo's land, which he probably wouldn't want anyways.

[YossarianLives]

I went ahead and sent Aivo an email agreeing to his terms.

Hi Aivo,

Thanks for your message. I completely understand where you're coming from and I think your suggestions are very reasonable. Option 2 works the best for me. You get back Nobamba and all of my troops in the city. In return, I would need a NAP to ensure that you don't turn around and use that army against me Does a NAP to T175 sound ok to you? I can also send you screenshots of all Team Ponies' cities to help you plan your offensive.

I had a settler planned to resettle the uMgung area. Is there any way we can work something out so I can still get a city there? I was thinking something along the lines of gifting you a happy resource or two. Also, I can get vision on the Ponies' tech if I put all my espionage on them for 4 or 5 turns. I'd be willing to do that to feed you info about their research path.

Those are my initial thoughts. How do you feel about that?

-Yossa

[Caledorn]

Giving a team control of another team will probably ruin this game. Reference to the post in the tech thread.

[Cheater Hater]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but as only a dedlurker I figured it wasn't my place to dispute it--of course, that means you (both as another player and as the host wanting integrity for the game) should say something in the tech thread about it

[YossarianLives]

Hey guys, sorry I've been so silent recently. Who knew that having a newborn plus a full time job was so much work?

Re: the mess in the tech thread. I'm really unhappy about Raptorous taking over for DMOC. First, I think it is unprecedented at RB for a vanquished team/player to take over a different civ after being eliminated. But that's not a big deal, if a replacement player can't be found that was not already playing in the game, I think this is a creative back-up plan. Second, it's replacing my most reliable, staunchest ally with a player that has called me out publicly for not fulfilling a deal ( which I disagree with, but that's another topic entirely). Most importantly, however, is that we're replacing the player who has the best chance to challenge Suttree for the win, with one of the worst players in this game. I think the implications of this basically means that Suttree will win this game unchallenged. Oh well...

Re: diplo. Aivo saw right through my email, understanding that my plan was just too buy peace until I could resume my offensive with a more advanced army while he is distracted with classy. He countered with a demand for more troops, a longer NAP, and he gets to resettle the uMgung area. I decided that peace is still in our best interest, so I agreed to his conditions. This means that our next opportunity for war will come on t190 (in about 40 turns) against Rome.

Re: in game stuff. Not a lot to report at the moment, the game has not moved since last week. Metal Casting came in and I have a bunch of Forge builds started. Machinery will complete in 4 turns, and then I'm not sure what to research. I want to keep growing our cities because we still have lots of happy to spare, but I also want to rush out settlers to finish settling all the remaining unclaimed land. I took a bunch of pictures last turn (t151), but I never found time to post them. Let me know if there is anything in particular that you would like to see. In international news, Suttree finished Military Tradition for Cuirs, just chained a third MoM-powered GA, and his power continues to grow. If he attacks Arkipeller or Classical_Hero soon and makes quick gains, we might start seeing calls to end this game.

[Cheater Hater]

Wow, I didn't think about the diplo consequences of such a move--this is such a mess, and is really putting me off diplo in the future. I just wish there was some way to balance "people being unreasonable" problems of a normal diplo game with the prisoners' dilemma mess that often shows up with AI diplo.

I thought Rome was still way too powerful to take on at this point? How many units have they lost in their current war, and what does the power graph look like after we gave away our troops?

How is our situation with Suttree--how long do we have a NAP with them for? How many civs do you think we would need to dogpile Suttree to take him down a peg?

[YossarianLives]

I thought Rome was still way too powerful to take on at this point? How many units have they lost in their current war, and what does the power graph look like after we gave away our troops?

They're probably still too powerful now, but in 40 turns? We should have enough of a tech lead at that point so we're not scared of his praets anymore We haven't given away our troops yet (Aivo requested we delay the gift until T160 to surprise Classical_Hero), but here's the power graph:

How is our situation with Suttree--how long do we have a NAP with them for? How many civs do you think we would need to dogpile Suttree to take him down a peg?

We have a rolling NAP with a 20-turn cancellation policy. We can cancel it at any time, but they're so far away from us that it won't actually do anything. We are going to have to rely on their neighbors to slow him down.




To the east lies Arkipeller (Team Orgy). This is where we are resting all our hopes. Arki is expecting Sutt to DOW him, and says he's taking measures to protect himself, but he's that orange line down near the bottom of the power graph. Without help, he will get rolled over pretty quickly. DMOC and I had allied ourselves with Arki for that very reason. I lent him some gold to help him get to Gunpowder, and DMOC was supposed to be helping out also. Who knows what will happen when Rapt takes over though. We'll need more than just Arki if we're going to slow down Sutt, so let's look west.




Here is CatB4ndit (formerly Asterix, formerly Maga). We reached out to CatB4ndit to see if they wanted to join our anti-SuttOxy alliance. We never heard back from them. Shortly after, SuttOxy posted in the story thread about DMOC trying to scare all the other teams against them. So I think that SuttOxy and CatB4ndit are working together and we won't get any help here. Let's move south.




It's Classical_Hero, about to be attacked by Aivo. Yeah, no help is coming from this front...

So the geo-political situation greatly favors SuttOxy. But that's not the biggest issue. Let's compare our current tech:




With SuttOxy's:










They are so far ahead of us (and everyone else) already, and that gap is just going to keep growing. In 40 turns, Rome will have Maces, we'll have gunpowder, and SuttOxy will have tanks.

Anyways, here's a picture of us finally getting peace with Aivo (assuming he accepts it):




But not before getting vision on some of his cities:




I want to delay him using that settler so I can get some culture into that area between us first if possible. Our email exchange is spoiled in case anyone is interested.

Hi Guys,

. There are couple of things we need to figure out before we have a deal, though.

First and foremost, I do not think that the army you have in Nobamba is enough to ensure conquest of the Ponies. Even if you provide me a full recon of Pony cities, it isn't enough if they can fight a decent defence. And I really cannot produce enough reinforcements with the little empire I have left. Is there any other military support you can provide aside from Nobamba stack and screenshots? E.g, reinforcements during the war or monetary support. I am not looking for exchanging a defensive war I cannot win to an offensive war I cannot win. I am essentially giving up any claims to my eastern empire, so I need to be sure I actually get the replacement land.

The second thing is that I agree that we'll need NAP. I also need to be sure that you are not just regrouping or waiting for knights to try your luck again. So NAP until turn 175 won't be enough. Especially since I might still have my forces mobilized against Ponies at the time. I will need NAP at least to turn 200 and this time I would prefer if our NAP had a ten turn cooldown period. I.e. NAP will continue indefinetly also after turn 200 until one of us gives 10 turn advance notice to the other party.

About uMgung area, I would prefer to resettle it myself. The biggest problem for me is that if you settle the area, I won't have any buffer zone between you and my capital. If you can convince me that I won't be exposing myself to another surprise attack and this time directly to my capital, we can negotiate. Otherwise, I would rather build a new city there myself.

- Aivo

Hi Aivo,

I think we can make this work.

In addition to the garrison in Nobambo, I will gift you 5 catapults, 5 axes and 1 chariot. I will do this within 5-10 turns.

I agree to an ongoing NAP with a 10-turn cancellation policy, which cannot be cancelled before t200 (so war cannot be declared before t210).

I will divert my settler to settle on top of the desert iron, so no new paths are opened up to your capital.

We will give each other strategic assistance in general. This can include resource gifts/trades, screenshot sharing of the Ponies' land, and general strategic advice.

I hope that there really are no hard feelings, and we can use this opportunity to build a new alliance.

Regards,

Yossa

Hi Yossa and Cal,

I think that main points are now resolved and I believe we are really close to finalizing the deal. To re-cap, the main points of the deal are:
- Peace between our nations.
- I get Nobamba back.
- I get your army in Nobamba.
- We'll have ongoing NAP with 10 advance notice of cancellation. Earliest possible cancellation is on turn 200. (No war at least before turn 210.)
- You'll settle on top of the desert iron.
- We'll have a generic agreement of strategic assistance. (Obviously I don't have much to give at the moment, but hopefully I can still rise from the ashes.)

I would like to clarify couple of details (and ask for one favour) to avoid any potential disputes in future:
1) I would like to resettle the uMgung ruins. The tile is 3 tiles away from the Iron so it is a tight fit, but I really would like to utilize the buildings in the area. I am not planning a culture spam there.
2) Troops that you will gift me include all units that were in Nobamba when we started the peace discussion, right? (Plus 5 more catapults and 5 more axes and a chariot.) Can you send me a list of the exact troops so we will have clear consensus on amount of troops involved?
3) I'm also assuming that the deal includes at least a short Open Borders, since we'll need that to transfer the troops. I would like to have OB for as long as we have NAP, if that's OK for you.
4) As a favour I would like to ask that you would transfer all the troops (including ones in Nobamba) at once around turn 160. I have NAP until turn 160 with them and I really much would like to take them completely by surprise. (This is not a necessary condition for me to agree to the peace, but it would be most helpful.)

If you have nothing to comment on or modify in the main points and details 1) and 3) and if we have same understanding on the transfering troops, we'll have a deal. In that case, please offer me a peace in-game (inluding transfer of Nobamba) and send me list of troops you'll give to me.
If you still have something to add or modify in the deal, please send me your proposal and let's try to get to a conclusion.


Related to the strategic assistance, if there is any way you could boost my happiness, it would be greatly appreciated (e.g. spare luxuries or spreading me a religion). For some reason my citizens were not really happy with the gentle encouragement with the whips I had to do recently


I assure you that I do not hold a grudge and we really can form a long term alliance. In the end, this is a game for me and holding grudges because of in-game actions is just silly in my opinion. Plus holding grudges and acting on them is one of the easiest ways to ruin any chances in the game.

BTW, I appreciate the subtle e-mail title change

Cheers,
Aivo

Hi Aivo,

Great! I have offered peace for Nobamba in-game. We are in agreement with all the main issues. Regarding your clarifications:

1) If you settle directly on top of the uMgung ruins, that makes a city on the iron a lot less worthwhile for me. Is there any chance you would be willing to settle 1W or 1SW of the former city? You will still pick up a lot of those cottages, and the city can work a lot of mines to get it caught-up with infrastructure. For now I will delay settling the iron until we can work this out.

2) Correct, the troops I will give you include everything that has been inside of Nobamba, plus 5 cats, 5 axes and a chariot. Inside of the city, I had 3 catapults, 7 axes, 2 spears and 2 chariots. Therefore, the total troops you will be getting are 8 cats, 12 axes, 2 spears and 3 chariots.

3) Open Borders works for me. I am happy to keep OB for the duration of our NAP.

4) I will transfer all the troops listed in Item 2) on T160, as requested.

5) I can gift you a happy resource next turn as soon as we establish peace. I forgot to take a screenshot of which resource I have to spare, but I know I have one or two.

6) I switched all my EP's onto Classical_Hero this turn. Unless he starts dumping EP's on me, I should get vision on his research on T155 or T156. I will share this information with you to help you plan your attack.

7) I am also attaching an overview shot of his territory. Let me know which other screenshots you want. He has been prickly about letting me send units through his borders, so I'm not sure I can get you real-time info on his troop composition, but I'll see what I can do.

I am enjoying our new partnership and am looking forward to working together much more closely in the future.

Peace,

Yossa

[Cheater Hater]

Wow, this looks like a mess
Any chance of convincing Rome to have fun just suiciding his troops onto SuttOxy? It's a long shot, but it could give Arki an opening--and allow us to freely conquer Rome when his troops are gone
And great, another game where I'm against B4ndit--see my PBEM thread for more on that