[SPOILERS] PB20 Lurker Thread of Perfect Hindsight

[SevenSpirits]

I've tried to log into both civs but the game crashed each time. It seemed to throw up an error message but I didn't have enough time to read it.

GG anyway guys.

Using the right mod? (ToW 1.21)

[Haram]

Seven, thank you for the calculation.

[The Black Sword]

Using the right mod? (ToW 1.21)

Yeah, I had it from subbing for GJ earlier, I was able to log in fine then.

[wetbandit]

Regarding SP, two non-detailed proposals for ToW to reduce the power of SP, framed in the context of RtR's attempt to do so:

1. Experiment more with the nerf of SP rather than RtR's current method of buffing alternative civic choices (obv SP is medium maintenance in RtR). Reduce distance maintenance by a percentage or eliminate in its entirety.
2. Increase the power of Corps. Get rid of the nerfs on Sid's keep BtS corp costs, reduce corp costs for all other corps. Enable corps at earlier techs (Sid's at Bio, Mining at Steel, etc.) Balance the outputs for the corps to reduce Sid's/Mining relative value if necessary.

I don't mean to postulate that RtR and ToW need to compete, rather, both mods, and nearly everyone, recognize how powerful SP is. RtR can try one method, which will lead to some outcome, ToW can try these other paths and see what results.

[GermanJoey]

I don't have the mod installed. Jojo, you've logged in - care to post some pics for us?

yeah sure, I'll try grabbing some tonight.

[GermanJoey]

Regarding SP, two non-detailed proposals for ToW to reduce the power of SP, framed in the context of RtR's attempt to do so:

1. Experiment more with the nerf of SP rather than RtR's current method of buffing alternative civic choices (obv SP is medium maintenance in RtR). Reduce distance maintenance by a percentage or eliminate in its entirety.
2. Increase the power of Corps. Get rid of the nerfs on Sid's keep BtS corp costs, reduce corp costs for all other corps. Enable corps at earlier techs (Sid's at Bio, Mining at Steel, etc.) Balance the outputs for the corps to reduce Sid's/Mining relative value if necessary.

I don't mean to postulate that RtR and ToW need to compete, rather, both mods, and nearly everyone, recognize how powerful SP is. RtR can try one method, which will lead to some outcome, ToW can try these other paths and see what results.

I like the idea of buffing corps. If they're not good enough to compete with state property despite coming later, make them good enough or better. Some more ideas:

1.) Reduce the spread cost (cheaper executives and no 50g cost to spread)
2.) Give execs more movespeed and let them ignore closed borders. (like caravals)
3.) Double or triple the upkeep of Civilized Jewelers and Standard Ethanol, so that you can use 'em to conduct corporate warfare on your neighbors.

[Caledorn]

Regarding SP, two non-detailed proposals for ToW to reduce the power of SP, framed in the context of RtR's attempt to do so:

1. Experiment more with the nerf of SP rather than RtR's current method of buffing alternative civic choices (obv SP is medium maintenance in RtR). Reduce distance maintenance by a percentage or eliminate in its entirety.
2. Increase the power of Corps. Get rid of the nerfs on Sid's keep BtS corp costs, reduce corp costs for all other corps. Enable corps at earlier techs (Sid's at Bio, Mining at Steel, etc.) Balance the outputs for the corps to reduce Sid's/Mining relative value if necessary.

I don't mean to postulate that RtR and ToW need to compete, rather, both mods, and nearly everyone, recognize how powerful SP is. RtR can try one method, which will lead to some outcome, ToW can try these other paths and see what results.

I like the idea of buffing corps. If they're not good enough to compete with state property despite coming later, make them good enough or better. Some more ideas:

1.) Reduce the spread cost (cheaper executives and no 50g cost to spread)
2.) Give execs more movespeed and let them ignore closed borders. (like caravals)
3.) Double or triple the upkeep of Civilized Jewelers and Standard Ethanol, so that you can use 'em to conduct corporate warfare on your neighbors.

That sounds like a fun idea. I'd like to join a game with buffed corps,if it becomes a reality.

[mackoti]

In the end for me Sp was like maybe 110 food , somewere at 140 production and dont know exactly how much gold on distance i supose near 250 with inflation and cicvic reduction same like yours seven near 350/400.So yeah a strong civ, but we realy want to level this civics so you dont have any incentive to learn new civics?If i would played a standard game i would had maybe 30 workshops and rest cotages.Puting minin inc faster is a solution ,but need to be careful to not make just the cotage spam and mining inc the right solution becasue you know every one can adopt SP but mining inc can have just 1.
What about mercantilism giving as well 1food from mines and free market gave 1 or 1 food to windmils.

[SevenSpirits]

Let me try to be clearer about exactly where I see the problem.

My first claim is: state property is one of the most powerful techs in the game and it often deserves and receives some of the deepest beelines. I also observe that it has two first-to-reach bonuses. I also observe that use of its main benefit precludes use of: mercantilism, free market, environmentalism, and all 7 corporations, and furthermore gives a strong boost to a tile improvement that is already top tier without it, thereby securing that improvement's position as the best improvement. I think that correct play is to try to get to communism before other techs in its era, and to adopt state property as early as possible, and to ignore corporations, and to ignore other economic civics after SP is available. So far I have not made any value judgments, but I will now.

I think it is a problem that state property eclipses all these other options. I think it's a problem because it reduces the strategy space of the game quite a bit. It's not a very big deal that it makes other economic civics obsolete; the bigger problem is that it's too strong a beeline target and should warp the teching strategy of all players around it.

If you buff mercantilism and/or free market to give it better competition, you are pretty much just pushing that problem earlier in the tech tree. Now there is a civic with comparable strength and it's even earlier - so now you are forcing players to rush for banking and maybe economics in order to get this massive benefit.

On the other hand, if you buff corporations, you are actually not touching the problem almost at all. It's still going to be correct in most cases to push for SP. And on top of that you are creating a new problem, which is that corporations are necessary to make non-SP civics viable, which shuts some players out of non-SP civics just because they are not first to railroad or what have you.

In both cases you are leaving something bad in the game, namely, a payoff that is much, much larger than the investment required to get it. All throughout the game, there are various investments you can make; for example, you can research biology to get more food, and you can research assembly line and build factories and accept unhealthiness in order to increase your production. In the late game, there are certainly quite a few investments with really solid returns. But Communism is out of line with all these other options, and making more things be out of line with the typical option is not a solution - it just creates a bigger problem.

The only and clear solution is to make state property somewhat worse. We don't want to make it so bad that it is not worth beelining sometimes, but we do want it to not be the universally correct choice regardless of circumstances. In my opinion, we also want to reduce the snowball advantage that the first player to reach it gets, in the form of both dibs on the Kremlin, and the Great Spy. Imagine if Civil Service also gave the first player to reach it a great scientist and was the only necessary tech for the Taj Mahal - that would be pretty dumb, right?

As someone who has gone for state property a lot and who did try out corps by comparison in this past game, I am pretty confident about this. The question is just, what is the right amount of nerfing so that SP is still good without being overbearing.

[mackoti]

Let me try to be clearer about exactly where I see the problem.

My first claim is: state property is one of the most powerful techs in the game and it often deserves and receives some of the deepest beelines. I also observe that it has two first-to-reach bonuses. I also observe that use of its main benefit precludes use of: mercantilism, free market, environmentalism, and all 7 corporations, and furthermore gives a strong boost to a tile improvement that is already top tier without it, thereby securing that improvement's position as the best improvement. I think that correct play is to try to get to communism before other techs in its era, and to adopt state property as early as possible, and to ignore corporations, and to ignore other economic civics after SP is available. So far I have not made any value judgments, but I will now.

I think it is a problem that state property eclipses all these other options. I think it's a problem because it reduces the strategy space of the game quite a bit. It's not a very big deal that it makes other economic civics obsolete; the bigger problem is that it's too strong a beeline target and should warp the teching strategy of all players around it.

If you buff mercantilism and/or free market to give it better competition, you are pretty much just pushing that problem earlier in the tech tree. Now there is a civic with comparable strength and it's even earlier - so now you are forcing players to rush for banking and maybe economics in order to get this massive benefit.

On the other hand, if you buff corporations, you are actually not touching the problem almost at all. It's still going to be correct in most cases to push for SP. And on top of that you are creating a new problem, which is that corporations are necessary to make non-SP civics viable, which shuts some players out of non-SP civics just because they are not first to railroad or what have you.

In both cases you are leaving something bad in the game, namely, a payoff that is much, much larger than the investment required to get it. All throughout the game, there are various investments you can make; for example, you can research biology to get more food, and you can research assembly line and build factories and accept unhealthiness in order to increase your production. In the late game, there are certainly quite a few investments with really solid returns. But Communism is out of line with all these other options, and making more things be out of line with the typical option is not a solution - it just creates a bigger problem.

The only and clear solution is to make state property somewhat worse. We don't want to make it so bad that it is not worth beelining sometimes, but we do want it to not be the universally correct choice regardless of circumstances. In my opinion, we also want to reduce the snowball advantage that the first player to reach it gets, in the form of both dibs on the Kremlin, and the Great Spy. Imagine if Civil Service also gave the first player to reach it a great scientist and was the only necessary tech for the Taj Mahal - that would be pretty dumb, right?

As someone who has gone for state property a lot and who did try out corps by comparison in this past game, I am pretty confident about this. The question is just, what is the right amount of nerfing so that SP is still good without being overbearing.

1.Kremlin is antisinergic with SP, i builded just for the denial purpose.A great scientist then would value like 3 spies at SP.And you dont need unuseful techs to get CS.
2.I think you present the problem to simple when actualy it isnt, becasue belining to the SP you research loads of techs which are doing nothing for you military so you fall behind there and someone which doesnt research comunism can get for example rifling very fast and conquer a neighbour so he will have more land then you so same research and you will find yourself in a position were you need to catch up.Small empire with SP is not that strong and military backward.In my case was diferent cause i had super grenadiers which kept me safe and gave oportunity to conquerer.
3.Running after fast comunism exclude Taj from your beline and civic like nationhood which can be very usefull.
4.In a serious game like this one the best tech you can get witth liberalism would be PP which is in way to Comunism.
5.SM let you without monasteries and other wonders.
One solution would be to move kremlin somewere else so the rushby economy doesnt need the comunism, were to? that would be dificult to find.
removing Gspy will make 90% of people to go rifles and cavs and not see grenadiers anymore.