This is gonna be good: von Adlercreutz and Taotao

[von Adlercreutz]

What would REMs odds be if attacking 0,8 h woody2 scout in a forest? Losing his warrior might delay his 2nd city and would mean antagonizing us for nothing. I wouldn't want to antagonize a neighbour this early for a small gain, you never know which border you're going to need to have as a peaceful front if your other neighbour does something offensive like pink dot or even rush. But REM might think differently, imo he's somewhat prone to duel-mentality and zero-sum games.

[taotao]

What would REMs odds be if attacking 0,8 h woody2 scout in a forest? Losing his warrior might delay his 2nd city and would mean antagonizing us for nothing. I wouldn't want to antagonize a neighbour this early for a small gain, you never know which border you're going to need to have as a peaceful front if your other neighbour does something offensive like pink dot or even rush. But REM might think differently, imo he's somewhat prone to duel-mentality and zero-sum games.

First off, if we moved to the diagonal this turn and wait for him on purpose so that he gets to take a shot at our scout, Fintourist would only be woodsman 1.
If we move into position to check the diagonal next turn, then we'd be str 0,9, w2 and he'll have a river crossing penalty as well (if he moves the warrior back to cover the diagonal).

I haven't simmed this or anything, but instinctively I believe that the first option would be clear odds for him, but not risk free, say 80-ish % ? Second option I actually think we'll have the upper hand, but not by much, say 40% that the warrior wins?

In REMs shoes I wouldn't attack as long as we didn't declare on him first, but my gut feeling about REM says that he'd take any shot above 70% or so.
Preferably I wouldn't want him to have a shot at taking us out at all though. As you said REM could get in a bit of a duel mode and if so, I'd rather have him thinking about fighting someone else than us. He also put 2EP into us last turn so that means he has met somebody else and we're not his sole neighbour probably.

[von Adlercreutz]

The rules about doublemoves don't talk about scouting, only settler races. I don't think we're forced to keep a peace time turnsplit in this situation. Maybe a lurker could confirm this?

[BRickAstley]

The rules about doublemoves don't talk about scouting, only settler races. I don't think we're forced to keep a peace time turnsplit in this situation. Maybe a lurker could confirm this?

Correct

[taotao]

The rules about doublemoves don't talk about scouting, only settler races. I don't think we're forced to keep a peace time turnsplit in this situation. Maybe a lurker could confirm this?

Correct

Thanks BRick!
In that case I suggest we move to the diagonal this turn and try to play before REM next turn. I don't think he'll mind particularly either due to him double moving us this turn, but good to get outside confirmation that we're not overstepping the rules.

If REM logs in before us next turn and kills the scout, then I'm going to be angry, but that's just the way it goes if so.
(and of course I'll be much more inclined to war against him in the future)

[taotao]

The Russian Bear is temperamental and virtually impossible to contain once well fed, except via unit gifts to would-be prey and Dickensian reams of angry, angry words to balm the inconsolable, weeping, tortured ego. Pet at your own risk.

At least it isn't a raving shrimp, right?

Good thread so far and good luck!

Thanks BGN!
It feels good to have one friendly Russian bear roaming round our forests and not just those craven Kamchatka creatures clawing up our tremendous trees.

Personally I too prefer those cuddly cubs to any antarctic ocean terror occasionally referred to as Montezuma's revenge.

Hopefully REM won't be the only one employing wildlife in his army though. I certainly wouldn't mind if a Finno-Dutch lion would take out that warrior of his.

[von Adlercreutz]

Scouting info, REM has pigs and a road, maybe planning to settle SE?



We could also start planning the border with REM, it's a narrow istmush. I'd like to get the gold, the cows N of the gold are already quite a stretch, especially against imp opponent. Who might be settling south first if I interpret that road right.


Power graph:

Impis are 4000 power, but so is the wheel. Let's keep a watchful eye on this.

[taotao]

Scouting info, REM has pigs and a road, maybe planning to settle SE?

I presume you mean SW as that is the direction the road is heading?
Anyway, yes, that corn-fish-cattle valley is enticing enough that I'd want to move in that general direction very soon if I were him

Did you see whether that water tile north of the pigs is a lake or coast? He spent one turn moving his settler at the start and it would be interesting knowing why he might've wanted to do that? He certainly didn't get a hills plant in any case. I'm also fairly certain that both the pigs and ivory where in his initial BFC to serve as equivalents to our own corn and ivory.

How do you feel about backing off with the scout and moving him 2SW?
I doubt we can get a look now at the actual capital without declaring war and I'd rather appear to be nice neighbour still...
Also, 2SW means we can outrun his warrior even if he follows and can defog the tiles we've left on our way here. Specifically I'd like to check for seafood NE of the gold and west of the marble to see the feasibility of cities there.

As for front cities I'll admit instantly that I'm greedy enough that I want GOLD. The commerce is nice, but mainly I want it for the semi-early happiness. It will be hard getting it though. It's located 5N10E from us while the distance to REM is 10S2E. Add to that that he's imperialistic and has that as his natural direction for expansion.

Preferably I'd explore the whole region and look at larger dot maps before deciding on anything more firmly, but one site I would consider here is the desert hill next to the oasis. It's a rubbish city in all honesty, but working the oasis, the gold and sharing a floodplain it'll have decent early commerce. More importantly though, it's a hill city that will culture block REM completely from settling south. The highest risk I see with this city is if there's seafood east of the gold. If that's the case it might be quite tempting for REM to settle 1NE of gold and we'd have a major culture battle on our hands (if he settles gold second ring we really ought to manage keeping it within our own borders). Somewhat similarly, if we have seafood west of marble it gets quite tempting for us to plant a city in that region, which in turn probably would push gold city 1E or 1NE since we're not avoiding two front cities anyhow.



World news:
Land points for 21/23 civs came today. Everybody got a 3p increase apart from:
CH - who researched a tech as well and got 9
Borsche - who got a tech and grew to size 2 (netting 10p)
Molach - who probably went inland with the settler and has 9/9 land tiles in first ring (getting 4p)
and finally
Commodore - who got 4p, probably by being the first person to grow to size 3.

[taotao]

t21
Quiet turn. Promoted Fintourist to woodsman II and moved him 2SW:




Back home I moved our worker to the ivory. Next worker due in 1 turn. BW in two.

REM upped his score by 9p, meaning he finished Bronze Working and has 7 or 8 land tiles in his caps first ring.
DZs capital (along with Serdoa NS and Krill) grew to size 3.

Suggest scout to move 2SE next turn.

[von Adlercreutz]

Agree with scout move, I want to get a better look at nearby lands for dotmapping.