RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[meatbalz]

This is a speedbump, nothing more. A big part of the reason I joined the RB community was the attitude displayed by its members when faced with adversity and this is the perfect situation to show we belong.

We've got one of the best economies in the game; we're in an excellent diplomatic situation; we've got 3 heads to figure out how to overcome this problem; our leader/civ traits will come to the fore in the mid to late game; and we have hundreds of turns to turn our fortunes around.

Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work.

[/rousing speech just before heading off to a place with no internet connection for the entire weekend ]

[Ilios]

Thanks for motivating me guys.

Even in my morose state yesterday, I managed to do some diplo.

I caught Morgan of France in a chat yesterday:

7:38 PM me: good
our alliance would like to offer you to join
7:39 PM DMOC,Rash: can you name the members>?
me: India/Egypt/Aztec/Portugal/HRE/Ottomans/England/Carthage
7:40 PM DMOC,Rash: wow, lots of peeps
me: we will have Alphabet on T63
DMOC,Rash: what are the terms?
7:41 PM me: well, we'd like to start saving gold now
as soon as Alphabet comes in, all cheap techs are traded around
7:42 PM then everyone researches one of the important techs
Monarchy/Currency/Maths et
etc
the gold saved now will allow you to fund 100% research to speed up things
7:43 PM a couple of us are already researching the important military techs like HBR and IW
7:45 PM we will be signing NAP's with every member ofcourse
the only real condition is that you send out units asap to meet the other members
7:46 PM you still there?
me: so what else would you like to know?
8:45 PM DMOC,Rash: any writen treaties floating about?
me: erm, not sure what you mean
can you give an example?
8:46 PM DMOC,Rash: no team have drawn up a written document of the allience
me: every team has officially accepted entering the alliance
8:47 PM but if you'd want something like you mean
i'm sure that can be arranged
DMOC,Rash: well just tell me the details of it again
is it just tech sharing and naps?
8:50 PM me: sorry afk a moment
yes nap's ofcourse
and tech sharing of the ancient era techs
8:51 PM DMOC,Rash: cool. which civs wanted us to be a part of it?
8:52 PM me: well it was more of a general agreement between the founding members
8:53 PM those are India Ottomans HRE and Egypt
DMOC,Rash: Yep, i'll sign up. is it for a set time or ongoing?
8:54 PM can we all share screenshots?
me: yes ofcourse, all geographical info will be shared between the members
8:55 PM can i ask you which techs you've already researched?
and are you clse to finishing one?
DMOC,Rash: been saving gold tbh
8:56 PM me: good
if you could keep on doing this
do you have pottery?
8:57 PM DMOC,Rash: sure, pottery part researched. gonna switch to it now and slow tech
me: never mind that, you'll get it for free
just keep saving gol
do you have horses connected for chariots
8:58 PM DMOC,Rash: no horse
me: because you're going to have to scout bigtime
DMOC,Rash: you got writing
8:59 PM me: no
will be shared as well
9:00 PM DMOC,Rash: ok, have to wait on the scout. you have horse?
me: can you found near horse in the near future
DMOC,Rash: no horse on map
me: we will have horse soon
DMOC,Rash: can we trade for a chariot later?
9:01 PM i'll get some scouts out, but chariot rules
me: yeah that should be no problem
DMOC,Rash: thanks.
me: can't give you an exact ETA though
DMOC,Rash: when your ready no rush
9:02 PM me: can you already send a unit east?
DMOC,Rash: I have one going that way
me: good
once you meet up with england
9:03 PM i'll ask them to liaise for a meetup with the others

We then talked about getting his units over to meet the others asap. Bit of a problem as he has one warrior about 10 tiles to our gold tile's east, will take a while...

DMOC,Rash: will you be gifted alpha on t63?
9:30 PM me: some teams will be, if they need it to head for another tech like currency
ok
we'll have to continu this later buddy
i really have to go
9:31 PM DMOC,Rash: ok, laters
me: if you move your warrior
that's 10E from gold
if you move him ten tiles east
you'll meet england
they wil guide you to the other
DMOC,Rash: cool. thanks
me: you meeting the others is very important
9:32 PM DMOC,Rash: i send him off.
me: good
one last thing
if you meet other teams outside of the cartel
DMOC,Rash: say nothing?
9:33 PM me: don't blow them off right away
say you're considering options
say you haven't met enough teams to decide now
etc
DMOC,Rash: will do
me: stall em
ok
gotta go now
DMOC,Rash: laters
me: nice talking to you
DMOC,Rash: you too
me: lets keep in touch
9:34 PM DMOC,Rash: aye
me: later

[dazedroyalty]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this chat, tbh. Maybe it was just paranoia but part of me felt like he wast trying to get as much info as he can in order to share with the "dark side." But that's probably just me being ridiculous, especially in light of our Settler loss. I keep kicking myself for not being more cautious with the settler. Anyways, I really don't think we will be majorly crippled long term. Yes, it's a set back, but smart play makes a big difference. I don't think we're better than every team but I do feel confident that we're doing a good job planning, microing (no thanks to me!) and diplomatically. These things can mean a lot more than the delay in our 3rd city. Especially with maintenance costs being what they are, there is a silver lining!

[Ilios]

More Diplo

England:

Subject: Settling Rights

To the Principality of DIM,

We finally sighted some unclaimed copper for our civ. So far, we've only got our hooked horses, and need the copper to secure our defenses, especially on our southern border. However, it's rather near your territory. We are planning on settling 1W of our warrior's current spot, most likely on T69. Without a food resource besides that corn in sight, this is the only spot that makes any sense for us to get this critical strategic resource. If culture encroachment is likely to be a problem, we are willing to guarantee no culture beyond a library, our free creative culture, and a religion if we ever get access to one, as well as discussing settlement rights to our NW, the area between Animal Farm and Midas. The corn is 2E1S of your gold, on the off chance your team hadn't seen it yet. Attached is the picture of our scouting warrior Spearman meeting Lion the Panzer Driver at the Northern Copper.

We meet Krill T62 at the latest, Carthage has made sure of that.

--
Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
Lords of Avalon
Suryavaraman II of England

Here the screenshot:



England clearly don't realise that the Corn is in Midas' BFC. I'll tell them politely their city is totally unacceptable. I think I'll tell them to wait until Ottomans get IW around T70.

[dazedroyalty]

That's a scary looking barb...

[Ilios]

This is what I sent back to England:

To the Lords of Avalon,


First of all I would like to thank for bringing this up with us before taking action, much appreciated!

There are a number of problems with your proposed city site.
The corn you see on the screenshot lies in Midas' BFC, so you can understand that planting a city there would not be acceptable to us.

Unless you can find another high yield food tile in the fog when moving the planned site, the city would be of low quality for the forseeable future. Added is the undeniable hit you would take to your economy, as a city that far from you capital will have massive upkeep costs.

This does not mean we are not aware of your current lack of metal, which you will need to protect yourselves from the southern nations.

I have therefore come up with an idea that might solve your problem.

We are not the only nation already researching a classical tech. Our friends, the Ottomans, have recently started researching Iron Working, with a current ETA of T72. This will undoubtedly be brought back a couple of turns as new cottages are worked and new cities are founded and connected.

Under the terms of the Cartel agreement, each nation can trade his classical tech as soon as it is researched. Most nations will prefer to wait until a trading partner has something to give them in return.

However, as we are on good terms with the Ottomans, and it would make strategic sense for the Cartel as a whole to do so, we will ask them to advance you Iron Working as soon as they have researched it. Taking into account the number of cities you will have founded by then, and your Creative advantage, the mapmakers will have been very cruel indeed if they didn't put at least one Iron resource nearby.

In my opinion, this will probably allow you to connect a metal resource quicker than if you'd gone for the far away copper you proposed.

If you could give me a couple of days to hammer out the details, I'd be much obliged.
I will contact you as soon as I have a deal.


Highest regards,


Ilios - DIM

I then had a chat with Haphazard:

8:21 PM Haphazard1,: you around? It's Cyneheard.
8:22 PM We just met France, and were a little confused about their message: "Looking forward to working with you guys, HRE said you'd direct the rest of the gang!"
8:23 PM We were under the impression that they weren't part of our group
8:27 PM If they meant "arrange contacts", that's fine.

nobody told England France had joined...

8:33 PM me: sorry
i had asked Krill to forward this information to you
Haphazard1,: it's not a big deal, we were just trying to resolve the confusion
we haven't met Krill yet
8:34 PM me: yeah actually it was Krill who had asked the others to forward this to you
again, apologies, this shouldn't have happened,
8:35 PM Krill had appraoched me a couple of days ago asking me to contact France
8:37 PM their inclusion into the Cartel makes strategic sense, completely safeguarding both England's and HRE's eastern border
8:38 PM Haphazard1,: ah, ok.
that means we only have to worry about our south.
me: that doesn't mean we will not be tearing them a new one somewhere in the future
8:39 PM exactly
Haphazard1,: We're trying to discuss a T100 NAP with our southern neighbors of Babylon and Mali.
me: have they approached you yet to be included in their tech alliance?
8:40 PM Haphazard1,: they were talking to us before we even met you
me: if you can keep stalling
8:41 PM Haphazard1,: well, we do want the NAP signed beforehand...
otherwise we're going to have a 2v1
me: good thinking
Haphazard1,: you got our request about the copper city?
me: is Carthage above Mali?
yes, I am composing a reply
Haphazard1,: Carthage is somewhat to the west of Mali
8:42 PM me: carthage is west of you no?
Haphazard1,: yeah
but Mali's capital is like 3tiles west of us, and Babylon's capital is like 8 tiles east
me: aha
8:43 PM Haphazard1,: Carthage has exact coordinates of 2 Mali cities thanks to us
me: good
Haphazard1,: Well, actually, thanks to an overly-useful screenshot they sent us about a barb warrior...
me: hehe
8:44 PM Haphazard1,: We hope you enjoyed our little edits? ASM had some fun swapping out the lion for the tank.
me: hehe, yeah, glad we don't have to face those yet
Haphazard1,: we've got an exploring warrior sitting next to a bear, while on flat. Crap.
8:45 PM We asked for lurker input on problems with the picture. One lurker commented "There's no way you'd have warriors in the modern age"
me: lol
8:46 PM reply sent re copper question
8:47 PM Haphazard1,: I saw.
8:48 PM We just saw a sheep this turn that would work. Didn't realize the corn was in your BFC
me: i gathered
8:49 PM Haphazard1,: so you settled 1SE or 1E of the gold?
me: 1E
Haphazard1,: no wonder, that tile's fogged for us.
8:50 PM me: hehe
Haphazard1,: Gulliver was that way around T20
me: did you read the Iron Working offer?
8:51 PM Haphazard1,: Aye, and we'd love to have it fronted. Still have to talk about settling with the sheep. Distance will be about 3gpt there
actually 4gpt
me: yeah, actualy more
Haphazard1,: instead of 1-2 for a first-ring city
8:52 PM London isn't that far.
4gpt, it's precisely 2x as far as Beaver Rock from London for where we'd settle
and BR is costing us -1.97 in distance
8:53 PM sheep + copper + river is a stronger city than anything else we've got, we're probably still going to settle there
8:54 PM me: well we'd have to discuss it first
that's pretty close to our capital
8:55 PM Haphazard1,: everything's close to everyone's capital
me: well, between us in any case
8:58 PM Haphazard1,: Still, you'd be getting 2 copper sources if we don't get that city, to our none.
8:59 PM me: i'm not saying you can't have the site
Haphazard1,: 2S1W of the copper, or 2S, are the only ones that also get the sheep. 2S costs us the river.
9:00 PM me: if you can offer us some concessions to the west, i'm sure we can work something out
9:03 PM Haphazard1,: can you send us a SS of what's to the SW? We've got partial data there (and 0 food resources seen)
me: sure
9:04 PM Haphazard1,: awesome.
9:07 PM How are 9 teams going to research different techs?
9:09 PM me: what do you mean?
Haphazard1,: there are 9 teams in the cartel, right?
me: yes
9:10 PM Haphazard1,: and once Krill finishes Alpha, are there 9 classical techs available?
There's the 4 cheap ones that add up to about the same cost as 1 big one (Archery, Sailing, Masonry, Mono)
9:11 PM me: those techs are traded around for free
the cheap ones i mean
Haphazard1,: who's getting Archery? Going to need it for the Horse Archers.
Unless someone already has it.
me: Aztec has it aleady
Haphazard1,: Ah, good.
9:12 PM How's that war going?
Someone's spamming axes
me: well looks like stalemate
aztec spamming archers
inca spamming axes
Haphazard1,: Shame Krill can't send 3 WCs over...
9:13 PM me: yeah he can't spare the resources right now
Haphazard1,: If we wanted to, we could chop out a chariot army very quickly, but don't need one so soon
and they're a ways away
9:14 PM me: i was thinking maybe Ottomans, England and us could contribute a chariot or two in like ten turns
Haphazard1,: Where are the Aztecs?
9:15 PM the corn in the SS looks like it's Carthage territory, we've seen that one.
me: they are around 16 tiles north
Haphazard1,: of you? I don't think we can assist, it'll take us 15t to get there
9:16 PM me: yeah
and you need to guard your southern border
Haphazard1,: right
me: i've got agg rome to the ne
Haphazard1,: fun times.
9:17 PM If we're going to fight our southern neighbors, we want it to be the age of cata+maces at the earliest
9:18 PM This game will turn into a 9v7 very soon.
9:20 PM me: i'm hoping we can keep it 9 vs 3 vs 3
Haphazard1,: well, the four teams south of us will bloc up immediately
they've all met, and have been discussing tech deals
9:21 PM me: yeah
but they still won't have access to all those techs we'll be researching
Haphazard1,: Babylon and Mali would like to join us, realizing that your deal has to be better than theirs.
me: say where did you meet france?
Haphazard1,: Right near the copper area.
9:22 PM me: you told them about the tech deal?
Haphazard1,: We told them we had competing offers.
me: ah
Haphazard1,: They don't know what it is.
me: ok
Haphazard1,: Babylon will be the fastest team to self-tech Alphabet
with Pericles
9:23 PM me: which turn?
Haphazard1,: Probably around T85
me: hehe
Haphazard1,: Their next tech is Writing
they'll insta-build a library, and start working 2 scientists
9:24 PM It's hard to stall them too much longer, hence the NAP discussions
9:25 PM me: i understand
they'll soon find out
Haphazard1,: aye
9:27 PM me: anyway
if you could cede us the sheep wine site
we'd probably be good
Haphazard1,: right, that looks reasonable. We have our own wines to the SE, so the happy's not an issue. You're talking 2W1N of the sheep?
9:28 PM I'll confirm with Hap, but that should be fine. ASM's in chat with me, and it's fine with him.
me: 2W would fit better in our dotmap
its not like we'll be able to steal your horse tile
9:29 PM anyway talk it over with the team
i'll do the same
Haphazard1,: Aye. We'll also have to agree to avoid a culture war there
9:30 PM if it's 2W
me: and then we should get together to come up with a defense plan for the south
yeah
like i said
Haphazard1,: I'll talk, try to get back to you soon.
me: you'll keep the horse tile without a problem
ok later buddy
Haphazard1,: cya
9:33 PM one last question, if you're there: What would be your ETA for a sheep city?
We're still looking T69 or so for the sheep/copper site
9:34 PM me: we're probably going to be much later than that

[novice]

I really don't think we will be majorly crippled long term. Yes, it's a set back, but smart play makes a big difference. I don't think we're better than every team but I do feel confident that we're doing a good job planning, microing (no thanks to me!) and diplomatically. These things can mean a lot more than the delay in our 3rd city. Especially with maintenance costs being what they are, there is a silver lining!

FWIW, I agree. You have a strong diplo situation and on a map as cramped as this, with high maintenance costs, this loss does not matter as much as it would in PB1, for example.

Just look at Korea in PB2.

[Ilios]

I have played our turn. The worker was at 55/60. Instead of it finishing it naturally, I have 1 pop whipped it, putting us at 92/60. We put massive overflow in a settler next turn, and chops finish it the turn after. If we finish the worker naturally we will be forced to 2-pop whip the capital to finish the settler at the same time.

Comparison:

Whip worker:
T59 Worker (55/60)
1 pop whip, DIM works 2/1/1 4/1/0 4/1/2 1/3/1 -- Worker is at 92/60
T60 Settler (44/100)
T61 Settler (55/100)
2 chops -- Settler is at 95/100
T62 Settler finished

Whip Settler:
T59 Worker (55/60)
DIM works 2/1/1 4/1/0 4/1/2 1/3/1 3/0/1
T60 Settler (8/100)
T61 Settler (20/100)
2 chops -- Settler is at 60/100
T62 Settler (72/100)
1 pop whip, DIM works 2/1/1 4/1/0 4/1/2 1/3/1 -- Settler is at 102/100
T63 Settler finished

As you can see, we finish the settler a turn early because of the worker whip. I suggest we put one turn in a warrior. The after the copper comes online and we can start an Axe. When we get Archery, the warrior build changes into a Spear. As soon as the Axe finishes, we can start a Granary, 1 pop whip it and put the overflow in the Spear.

The way I see it, because of the whip we won't need to mine the plains hill right away. So Stakhanov was moved to Midas, starting a road then cancelling orders. Next turn he should move SE and road. New worker should move SE on plains hill and mine for one turn. The turn after move to tile W of copper and finish road started by Stakhanov. This will connect the cities on T61. The turn after, Midas' border pops and both workers can start the copper mine.

Midas should finish the warrior, then work the corn tile for 1 turn. This will allow it to grow to size 2 a turn early, in time for the copper mine to finish. We should build a Worker (finished in 6 turns, in time for the Corn tile to come online). Then a Granary, to be chopped when the workers finish farming the Corn.




I have moved Tricky next to the damaged lion. I'm hoping that this time our luck holds and we beat the settler killer (should be very very good odds!)
Tricky has Woody I, and is at full health. Next turn heal, turn after promotoe to Woody II and move to Horse site for attempt #2.



In other news, we met Rome this turn. They are really close to Inca...




I haven't had the time yet to send them a greeting. Inca haven't answered our greeting yet...

[Ilios]

I have played turn 60. I clearly need to study more on Slavery techniques, because the oveflow in DIM didn't seem to be as I expected. This means that the Settler will be finished on T63. That isn't a total disaster, because it will allow our workers to chop the forest at horse site and allow us to found the city on T65.

The barb warrior to our NW is now one tile removed from our borders. I'm not sure he will be moving in, but I've moved Cain, our warrior in DIM, on the road towards Horse site. If the warrior moves next to our border, we can move him on the forest. Otherwise we can just move him back inside the city.

Tricky has survived the Lion attack, is at 1.2 health. He'll heal this turn, and move after promoting to Woody II next turn.

I could have swiped the Roman Worker, but I thought better of it. No need in painting a big fat target on our heads for Roman Praetorians to practice on.

The warrior in Midas (Henry VIII) has moved west of the city. I am going to put him on the forest tile west of the Peak tile to the lake's south. This will give us another unit to fogbust around Horse site and protect our workers.

We have finally met Portugal, they appeared to our northeast.
I will take this opportunity to show our Diplo screen:



Eleven known nations, five to go.

[Ilios]

Diplo-updates:

Inca:

Subject: Greeting

Hi HRE,

Sorry we didn't respond any earlier.
We're just a bit busy raging war... as you surely can imagine...

We're currenty scouting everyone as well to get into full contact.

Talk to you soon!
Nakor for JANK

Well, they seem to have bought my BS...

England:

Subject: Settling rights

To the Principality of DIM,

Our proposal is as follows:
1) We settle 2S1W of the copper tile
2) You settle 2W1N of the sheep

Animal Farm's borders are going to pop a second time on T75-76, since we're going to be putting a library in there very soon. A city 2W of the sheep will be very culturally cramped, and having a city overlapping BFCs with our 2nd city is too close. We are aware that this will lead to extra overlap with your other cities, but a city 2W of the sheep is going to gain very little in extra territory. We are quite willing to negotiate with you of course and want to see this settled in an expedient and fair way. Attached is the copper area.

Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
Lords of Avalon
Suryavaraman II of England

So in short: They found to Midas' SE. In return, we get dibs on the Sheep and Wine to their north. I would prefer to found 2W of the sheep tile as it would fit better in our dotmap. It would only overlap with Englands Horse tile.
They do have a point that it will be culturally cramped, and I don't think we can get a settler there any time soon. I was thinking we could accept the position in exchange for not having to add gold when we trade our HBR. I've sent them back that I'd like to wait till MB is back for our official reply.

Ottomans:

Subject: Alliance Within

Hi DIM

I'm starting to feel the same way as you guys are about the others in
AWTA (our mini alliance). Not that they are bad or anything, but we
just haven't talked to them enough to trust them. For instance, since
we met on T8, we've managed to negotiate some deals including our
border agreement, tech trades and our 'entity' (which is why we are
sharing this with you).

However we haven't really done much with the other members of AWTA.
Well, we are involved in Ruff's war (which is why we trust him more
than India) but apart from that, there hasn't been much communicating
between us other than greetings.

India is our main concern ATM. While they did suggest the alliance,
they haven't really shown us they are trustworthy (yet). I suspect
that both of these guys are in WHEOOHRN mode but still, they haven't
talked enough for us to trust them.

IMO the solution one of us to bring it up and then chat with them some
more. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, we have seen from Krill that France have apparently been allowed
in the alliance. Since you are their only contact, can you explain
that? We were under the impression that you disliked them due to the
demands they made with you.

I'm still thinking what to write back. I'm probably going to put India, Aztec and Egypt in the same camp: experienced players who will not necessarily stick to their friends. I will push them a bit more towards England and Carthage. I want to be ready when the backstabbing begins...