That looks like a terrific area all right! I wouldn't want to plant our third city there though - unless copper turns up in its first ring (or in Muqa's first ring or Borte's BFC). If we still haven't met anybody by then and feel like we can sandbox in isolated peace then maybe, but in a game against humans, I expect we'll want the option to build spears and axes sooner than city 4.
More analysis later, but I also wanted to offer this possible plan:
Candidate Microplan #1, continued:
This could all change T36, depending on where Copper turns up, but this is the general idea. I don't like the 9 food sitting in Borte's food box doing nothing for 17-21 turns, but with this food-heavy, production-light start, there might not be a better alternative. I also don't like having only two warriors (even if they don't die to animals) through T39, although if an actual threat materializes we could of course scrap the plan and get more fairly quickly. Also I haven't actually sandboxed this one out yet to confirm it works as planned. Nevertheless!
T34: Worker is complete at Borte; it moves SW to the Cows and begins a road. Borte builds a Settler, working the Cows, Clams, and Rice. Muqa switches to working the Oasis.
T35: The Workers complete their Farm and Road. Muqa switches to working the Corn.
T36: Muqa is now size 2, and works the Corn and Plains Forest Hill. Bronze Working is complete, revealing Copper. The Workers respond accordingly (TBD based on Copper location) - if not needed more urgently for copper-related reasons, the Worker from the Corn moves to the Pigs. Tech ... AH or Pottery?
T37: If there is a Worker on the Pigs, it begins a Pasture.
T38: Muqa switches to working Corn + Oasis.
T39: Borte WHIPS its Settler (3 pop to 2) and works Cow + Rice. Muqa switches to working Corn + Clams.
T40: Settler is complete at Borte with 11 overflow. Warrior is complete at Muqa (assuming we haven't yet connected copper). Muqa is now size 3 and works Corn + Clams + Pigs. The worker on the Pigs (if there is one) completes the Pasture....
So I guess I understand what Coeur did now, since he grew to size 2 (going into turn 11) having produced his workboat EoT9 and hooked and worked his clams on T10. For the numbers to add up, this means he must have worked the Cows for two (or I guess three) of the first five turns of the game instead of the clams. It gives him two (or three) hammers in a Warrior already as he (presumably) starts his Worker, but at the cost of 3 (or 4) food and 6 (or 8) beakers. Also, like Dark Savant, he's been teching BW since T0.
The other civ still lacking a tech is naturally Inca. They're probably teching Hunting or The Wheel, and I should probably be able to tell which from the demo screen on T12.
All four EXP civs (including us) finished their workers EoT9, and are now working their Clams or Oases - although Gav played after us, which means he hadn't yet turned off the city governor and it automatically assigned his citizen to the Oasis when his Worker completed; it's possible he's working a different tile now that he's actually played.
In domestic news, here's another micro option that resolves some of the problems with Candidate #1 but delays the Settler by a couple of turns and features a different site for Muqa:
Candidate Microplan #2:
I haven't simmed this in an actual sandbox game, but it should work; I'll hopefully have a chance to confirm in the next day or two if needed. The biggest issues with it are the limitations of its Muqa site (though there are naturally issues with the other Muqa site too) and the Settler for City 3 being delayed by two turns.
T12: Borte works the forest hill.
T13: Worker completes the Pasture. Borte switches to building a Work Boat and works the Cows.
T14: Worker begins a road.
T15: Worker completes the Road.
T16: Agriculture is complete; tech Mining. Worker moves NE-SE to the "river" grassland beside the Rice, begins a Road, and then CANCELS orders.
T17: Worker moves E to the Rice and begins a Farm.
T18: Borte is now size 2; Work Boat is complete, moves NW to the Clams, and Nets them. Borte resumes building the Warrior and works Cows + Clams.
T20: Warrior is complete and presumably heads northwestish to the Muqa region.
T21: Worker completes the Farm.
T22: Borte is now size 3. Worker moves W-SW to the hill. Borte works Cows + Clams + Rice.
T23: Mining is complete; tech Bronze Working. Warrior is complete; Borte starts building a Settler. Worker begins a Mine.
T26: Worker completes the Mine.
T27: Worker begins a Road.
T28: Worker completes the Road.
T29: Worker moves NW-N to the river grassland between Borte and the forest, begins a Road, and then CANCELS orders.
T30: Settler is complete and moves W-NW to the river grassland between the clams and hill. Worker moves 2NW to the river grassland 1S of the corn ("Wasting" its turn on movement). Borte starts building another Warrior.
T31: Settler moves 1NW to the Worker's tile and builds the city of Muqa. Worker moves 1N to the corn and begins a Farm. Muqa works the Clams and starts a Warrior; Borte works Cow + Rice + Mine. Set research slider to 0%.
T32: Muqa switches to building a Barracks. Set Research slider to 100%.
T33: Warrior is complete at Borte. Borte is now size 4. It builds a Worker and works Cow + Oasis + Rice + Mine.
T35: Worker completes the Farm. Borte switches to working Cow + Clams + Rice + Mine. Muqa works the Corn.
T36: Muqa is now size 2, and works Corn + Oasis. A new Worker is complete at Borte. Bronze Working is complete, revealing Copper. The Workers respond accordingly (TBD based on Copper location). Tech ... AH or Pottery? Borte builds a Settler.
T37: Muqa switches to working Corn + Clams. Borte switches to working Cow + Rice + Mine + Oasis.
T38: REVOLT to Slavery. Muqa resumes building a Warrior and WHIPS it (back to size 1, in spite of losing 2 hammers to the overflow cap) and works the Corn. Borte switches back to working Cow + Clams + Rice + Mine.
T39: Warrior is complete at Muqa. Muqa is now size 2 and builds another Warrior, working Corn + Oasis.
T40: Warrior is complete at Muqa. Muqa resumes building its Barracks and switches to working Corn + Clams; Borte switches to working Cow + Rice + Mine + Oasis.
T41: Borte WHIPS (to size 3) and works Cow + Rice + Mine.
T42: Settler is complete at Borte; Borte builds a Worker. Muqa is now Size 3 and works Corn + Clams + Oasis (or Grassland Hill Mine if it's complete) and starts a Settler(?)
T43: Worker is complete at Borte....
(May 8th, 2017, 17:10)RefSteel Wrote: That looks like a terrific area all right! I wouldn't want to plant our third city there though - unless copper turns up in its first ring (or in Muqa's first ring or Borte's BFC). If we still haven't met anybody by then and feel like we can sandbox in isolated peace then maybe, but in a game against humans, I expect we'll want the option to build spears and axes sooner than city 4.
I really hope we have copper in a tile in our culture, but there is no way we can be sure about that yet. My willingness to settle for a strong city that probably doesn`t have copper is what I would have done in SP. Here it is a bit too risky I guess. It`s no fun being overrun by a couple of axes in the early game.
(May 9th, 2017, 02:07)RefSteel Wrote: All four EXP civs (including us) finished their workers EoT9, and are now working their Clams or Oases - although Gav played after us, which means he hadn't yet turned off the city governor and it automatically assigned his citizen to the Oasis when his Worker completed; it's possible he's working a different tile now that he's actually played.
In domestic news, here's another micro option that resolves some of the problems with Candidate #1 but delays the Settler by a couple of turns and features a different site for Muqa:
Candidate Microplan #2:
There is some food for thought! Hmmm, I still think Microplan 1 is slightly stronger, but this is palatable as well. Imo we should prioritize an early third city, especially if we have the worker labour to support it. We will probably have a few turns to make the final decision.
I wonder if the early Bronze Working will pay off for Couerva and Dark Savant. I certainly don`t think that it`s the one right choice because of the lack of forests and the food resources in the starting bfc needing different techs.
Yeah, agreed on all points, I think. Also, having seen the turn roll on Civstats, it seems Krill didn't pick up a tech, so I guess his first-ring food tile isn't riverside. We should know more next turn anyway.
Now, that proposed fourth city spot is getting even more ridiculous. The scout found more food to the north as well. Not bad, not bad at all! Note that the water NE and NW of the scout is fresh water.
Very interesting! If the Scout continues northward, I imagine we'll meet a neighbor in not-too-many turns. (In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd meet someone by going east as well.)
In demographic news: dtay, GJ, and Ventessel presumably now have freshly-built Workers. GJ is the only one of these who's played yet, and my guess is that he swapped to his forest hill (like us) while sending his worker to pasture his cows and building a Workboat.
The next scout move will probably be 2N in order to find out who our northern neighbour is. If your analysis is right (and I suspect that it is), we are about to enter the midway point between our civs on turn 13 or 14. At the very least we can plant a city 2N-NE of our fourth city spot. Attacks from the NW should get a river crossing penalty. If we can get land north of that spot, I think building on hills is important, as we have to defend our cities well. Another question: Should we tech archery for the improved safety - or is it just a waste of beakers?
Sounds good. We're very unlikely to spot our northern neighbor from the bananas, but it shouldn't take many more turns from there.
We'll want Archery eventually of course, and it's relatively cheap in RtR, but I'd definitely want Pottery and AH first - unless we can't get access to copper at least. It just slows us down too much, with so many techs we still need. I think if we survive long enough to hook copper, we should be able to delay Archery until after HBR: Tech it while building a Ger in one or more production cities and start rolling out Keshiks when it's complete. The biggest thing archers have going for them, apart from being resourceless non-warriors, is that they're relatively cheap. I'd like to produce more warriors than we would with Microplan Candidate 1 partly for that reason (and partly because I don't want half our military force to get eaten by a bear or a lucky lion). I already feel like granaries, cottages, and locating horse tiles are all much too far away. (Not horribly far though: We'll have double prereq bonuses for each of them, they're each cheaper than bronze, and once we do have pottery, we can start carpeting our capital with river cottages.)
I'll jump the gun here (just before going to bed finally) by not waiting to see the demographics screen to guess that dtay just finished Mining and is moving on to Bronze Working. He'll get there in time to plant his second city for copper (probably later than our second city at least though) if it isn't in the mirrored capital BFC) and then he'll be able to build his Aggressive Impis. He won't need to attack with them immediately of course; he can do just about anything he wants early on since he's RtR Zulu, especially on this map. Probably worth keeping our eyes on him (through demos like this) at least, but I'm mainly just hoping he can somehow be contained until his massive early advantages lose some of their luster.
