[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[Bacchus]

Yeah, pigs/silver for city 3 for sure, it's very important early commerce.

As for pushing culture, there is only one quick answer -- Religion, and a slower answer -- Libraries. Would hate to build monuments whilst CHM. I guess that's the decision for after Pottery -- Writing or Mysti + Poly/Medi. Need to try and track other's techs carefully.

Regarding research shut-off, I considered doing it even before the settler is out, exactly because there is LESS commerce being pulled away from science. But it needs to be balanced with there being enough commerce being pulled away to actually last us.

Another idea, with all that food in second city, after Library, we could run scientists there for a quick academy in the cottage-rich capital. That probably pushed us away from the religion idea. But then monastery in the capital would be kinda cool too.

[Coeurva]

Due to us rotating out the oasis in favour of the copper mine (I assume), we're making 13bpt before completing the settler, 11bpt while he's en route, and 12bpt afterwards (before hitting size4). City #3 further increasing maintenance poses a problem. We don't want to save gold for two turns; we want to hit T44 Pottery. I'm not sure if we'll have worker labor to spare for trade routes.

CHM boosts library production by 35% and provides extra happiness already (coupled with us having access to at least two of whales, silver, and furs), which is why I'd try to avoid the religious path before Code of Laws; even Hereditary Rule isn't all that necessary, although I know I'm going to miss OrgRel. There's the Oracle, but we're somewhat disadvantaged against the EXP players (because I vetoed IND, probably what I regret the most, as it all but guarantees CML the Pyramids unless some offshore islands hold stone).

Another point in favour of libraries: Nobody has picked PHI. Hitting the earliest Academy in the field could indeed spell a large advantage, with the fringe option (?) of a Maths bulb enabling 45h settler chops, ~40h library chops or some kind of wonder chop. Impossible to say right now what's going to serve us better around T80, of course.

[Bacchus]

But can we fund the Wheel and Pottery out of 1 turn saving? If we can, that's be great obviously.

[Coeurva]

Well, I've already verified that we can fund both techs exactly, as long as we don't found city #3.

To rephrase that seriously, all we need to ensure is that city #3 doesn't cost us maintenance for ~2t, effectively, or alternatively, that we can squeeze out extra gold to cushion this. (Saving on one of the pre-T28 turns might actually suffice.) I think we can find some way to sneak in a counterbalancing trade route, or work all commerce at the capital for 1t to nail it. That's somewhat idle chatter from me before I'll sandbox this tomorrow, though.

[Bacchus]

Actually at worst we could always go to 90% after city #3 founding for 2t. That will probably always be a smaller sacrifice than moving a pop away from copper/cows.

[Coeurva]

T24. CML moved his scout 66, which makes it impossible to deny him any path he chooses since the scout just outruns the warrior on flatland. Thus I went 7 instead, as we don't have much time to get the warrior into the fogbusting/escorting position we want, and the warrior thus steps out of his vision, which might be more effective than continuing to show it. All that our unit can scout for now is some coast; crossing fingers for seafood.

Whales require Sailing, so pigs/silver it is. Should be rather closer to us and more distant from Savant than I'd been assuming so far, anyway.

Krill picked up his second pop point, confirming the 5f or 6f Agri tile in his small cross. Rival average soldiers showed a ~2000 increase (someone went BW?). Our food count is falling behind a bit (13 compared to 15, ranked #6). Joey seems to have picked up a tech.

Sandbox penny-squeezing etc. will happen in the evening.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, people must have improved the rice. An even more marginal improvement given the forest copper actually. How are we on MFG?

[Coeurva]

IIRC, we're almost rock bottom on MFG, not that this reflects our actual current production well, as we're on equal footing with the EXP people and ahead of most anyone else.

I'm floating around the idea that we could actually delay Wheel -> Pottery to ~T60 for Pottery in favour of Myst -> religion. There are three reasons I'm considering this:
* Cultural expansion unlocking grass cows + sheep plains hill (mine it?) advances city #2 into kind of a monster at size3/4.
* Any city we settle towards Savant will likely become holy, and the coastal hill plant becomes viable again for cothon trade juice later, while still accessing the silver. City #4 could also go coastal (8 of gems) with pre-improved rice, picking up clams 66, to be better than marginal pre-IW.
* We might be kind of constricted on worker labor, with perhaps as little as four (perhaps five, hopefully six) workers supplying as many cities on ~T50, and while growing onto more cottages is a great effect of CHM, so is whipping with almost no tangible penalty. How many additional riverside cottages can we actually lay down and work by teching Pottery some 15t earlier? Two?

And three reasons that I'd hold against the idea:
* Granaries. The capital really wants to grow further (and we'll hover around size3/4 for a while; whipping the second worker seems mandatory, we're just too slow on workers otherwise) and CHM yearns for granary-fueled whips. I'm not sure if building 1-2 more workers now and going heavy on granary chops/whips around ~T60 is better than investing some hammers slowbuilding granaries during growth, particularly due to 9h/t production at the capital.
* Our rapid expansion will only put a further strain on our research rate (which is excellent at the moment; only FIN Ventessel can compete). Both Wheel and Pottery are commercial techs (Pottery also a substantial food tech), while Myst->religion are food/hammer techs (de facto) and we'd have no way to convert hammers into commerce at this point, except for Henge failgold, for which conversion isn't immediate (unless CML is just aching to raise some megaliths). We'd also like to research Iron Working soon enough, because grass hill gems are good (I prefer flat, but still) and so are potential iron mines. We won't be needing any additional happiness from religion for some time.
* Libraries. We would delay Writing (which also conflicts with choosing CHM). We're definitely not getting a ~T80 Academy with religion. This would slow down Maths / Currency / CoL, which mean a slower game during the phase where we're going from 6 to 8-10 cities. The Academy might set us up as favoured competition in a Confucianism race.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, the culture push is the reason I considered religion too. It's a bit of a tight choice, but I think it has to go to Pottery, exactly because we have a massive oversupply of hammers at capital, and there are only that many warriors we want to build whilst growing.

We would want another worker after the settler in the cap, I guess we can time Pottery to complete then, and save gold before that. We want the Wheel for the TR yields anyway though.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

You mentioned pre-building a warrior to upgrade into an axe. This is not possible. Warriors upgrade into spears in the queue. There are a few quirks with upgrading units in the queue so make sure to sim or ask if you're unsure. It sucks to need a longbow and get a crossbow instead.