RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Zara of the Ottomans

[WarriorKnight]

Pro's
turn timer

Definately, this is IMO the main reason since neither side is attacking.

we get additional trade income from England / Carthage / Krill

Con's
they get a better import/export trade deal (doubt if material enough - but worth noting)

I still wouldn't sign OB with them, so neither side would get trade income.

we may think we can turn our thoughts back to infrasructure

In our GA, this is also tempting.

they can focus on another Cuddle member

Who? Byz is friends with pat, india is 1 in power and ruff has a few naps. Only 2 it could be are inca and rome, and we don't care much about them (not to mention more units attacking there means less defending when we attack again).

it may allow them to focus on infrastructure and catch up in the game - not that we are ahead in any way

Eh, any infra that they build won't be good for them since i think we'll redeclare in 10-15 turns anyway.

it will allow them to probably speed up their research

True, but the same also applies to us.

We should consider this and maybe get a settler out ASAP. Could always use it as a staging unit city and bomb it with a GA?

That's the plan. I think Ophir will whip one out shortly and we've got +50% odds in Nemedia of getting another artist.

For reference:



or here does look like the best site. On a hill that also gets the corn.

[Sockboy]

My biggest issue with accepting peace is that it gives CUDDLE a chance to redeclare late and get their turn order sorted out, whilst if we leave it as it is at present we have them in a split window. Remembering what happened with Carthage and England threatening Turan, if they'd been in the same window we'd have had a big problem, also Sunrise mentioned that we shouldn't consider taking a peace treaty for pretty much the same reason earlier.

Also for clarification are we talking a peace treaty (10 turns unbreakable peace) or are we talking a cease fire (either side able to redeclare at will)? In terms on turn timer it's obviously a big improvement though. Just we need to be careful when we get back around to declaring, so we prevent CUDDLE splitting our window like earlier (assuming we team up with India for an attack again).

Agree with "or here" for next city site, does someone have a name for it? The settler for it will be whipped out just before the Globe completes, so another 5 turns I think (last turn of GA). We should have a worker or two ready down there to help it get started too. Are we planning on farming or cottaging the area?

WK, working the plains hill in Aquilnoia may mean we can't shave another turn with the chop, I'll check in game if it makes any difference chopping the forest.

[WarriorKnight]

My biggest issue with accepting peace is that it gives CUDDLE a chance to redeclare late and get their turn order sorted out, whilst if we leave it as it is at present we have them in a split window. Remembering what happened with Carthage and England threatening Turan, if they'd been in the same window we'd have had a big problem, also Sunrise mentioned that we shouldn't consider taking a peace treaty for pretty much the same reason earlier.

I agree, keeping your enemy split and preventing them from moving at the same time is good. However, we also have the same problem as we are not moving at the same time as India, so changing that would be great.

England took the slot in between us and India to split us up, however that turned out to be a disadvantage when we thought they were going to attack with Carthage.

Since we're split with India now, we probably can't be much worse off.

Also for clarification are we talking a peace treaty (10 turns unbreakable peace) or are we talking a cease fire (either side able to redeclare at will)? In terms on turn timer it's obviously a big improvement though. Just we need to be careful when we get back around to declaring, so we prevent CUDDLE splitting our window like earlier (assuming we team up with India for an attack again).

Probably just a cease fire, although if it's a peace treaty I wouldn't really mind that (means we can connect the silk and improve new city safely).

Agree with "or here" for next city site, does someone have a name for it? The settler for it will be whipped out just before the Globe completes, so another 5 turns I think (last turn of GA). We should have a worker or two ready down there to help it get started too. Are we planning on farming or cottaging the area?

Hard to say about farms or cottages, on one hand it has corn and only 3 hills, so it's ideal for cottages. On the other, Krill will probably try and pillage the corn whenever we reenter the war. Long term we should probably cottage the area, but to start with we should chop some of the forests S of the city to make it more defendable, and I don't think it'll be a good city until we can remove it from the front lines (i haven't seen the effects of the artist yet).

Also something else, India's newest city is the same distance to our new city as bad ass. I think we might have to talk to them about it.

WK, working the plains hill in Aquilnoia may mean we can't shave another turn with the chop, I'll check in game if it makes any difference chopping the forest.

Well, I would rather shave the turn off by working the plains hill and saving the chop rather than using the chop. If the chop doesn't make any difference now then no biggie.

[Sockboy]

WK, I logged in and did the worker micro since Carthage have played, but didn't move the troops around, I wasn't sure what you had in mind for the new janns which completed.

Worst case scenario in the redeclare is that India and Us are still split, but Carthage, England and Egypt are all in a block together. We just need to be very careful this doesn't happen to us. Maybe we should perhaps negotiate a time with India where we both play to prevent them from splitting us on the redeclare? Seems a bit stupid that something like this could change the whole game, but I think it's pretty crucial that we don't let them all share a window later.

Looked at the ND micro and with the chop we can shave another turn off, so it's due to complete at the end of T143 (need to borrow a mine from Cimmeria for the final turn). Looking at the ESP screen, Swiss is putting something like 60hpt into their build, so (assuming they're building ND) they're due to complete around the end of T142 I think. They could be going for Sistine Chapel though, or the Hagia Sophia though. Anyway if they do finish it, then we just forget the chop and take the cash settlement.

The GA (and the free engineer/OR/serfdom/extra forest) have played around a bit with the micro for the Globe as well, I think we can complete it without the whip now, but I still think we should whip out the settler and overflow into a university there. I assume we're switching civics on the final turn of the GA?

We should also consider infra at Koth as we've got two chops coming in soon, I think we should send them into a hammam there, two chops = 60base hammers *1.5 for OR + Forge = 90 hammers, which is basically an instant hammam, alternatively we can get a courthouse and stables there if that seems worthwhile.

[WarriorKnight]

WK, I logged in and did the worker micro since Carthage have played, but didn't move the troops around, I wasn't sure what you had in mind for the new janns which completed.

Just defending the 3 front cities really, with a few extra at Koth for new city.

Worst case scenario in the redeclare is that India and Us are still split, but Carthage, England and Egypt are all in a block together. We just need to be very careful this doesn't happen to us. Maybe we should perhaps negotiate a time with India where we both play to prevent them from splitting us on the redeclare? Seems a bit stupid that something like this could change the whole game, but I think it's pretty crucial that we don't let them all share a window later.

Well, a team can take 2nd half anytime, but if you want the first half then you can't move late. This makes it so that both of us should try and play as late as possible (stupid but that's the rules). We'll discuss with them later.

Looked at the ND micro and with the chop we can shave another turn off, so it's due to complete at the end of T143 (need to borrow a mine from Cimmeria for the final turn). Looking at the ESP screen, Swiss is putting something like 60hpt into their build, so (assuming they're building ND) they're due to complete around the end of T142 I think. They could be going for Sistine Chapel though, or the Hagia Sophia though. Anyway if they do finish it, then we just forget the chop and take the cash settlement.

Sounds good. Hagia seems silly as Steam power isn't that far away, but it could also be Sistine's.

The GA (and the free engineer/OR/serfdom/extra forest) have played around a bit with the micro for the Globe as well, I think we can complete it without the whip now, but I still think we should whip out the settler and overflow into a university there. I assume we're switching civics on the final turn of the GA?

We can switch whenever, but I would like to do it sometime when we start steel since that is important to get ASAP, and mercantilism is costing us a lot of gold ATM.

We should also consider infra at Koth as we've got two chops coming in soon, I think we should send them into a hammam there, two chops = 60base hammers *1.5 for OR + Forge = 90 hammers, which is basically an instant hammam, alternatively we can get a courthouse and stables there if that seems worthwhile.

Stables probably aren't worth it this late in the game. Courthouse would be nice but hammam would probably be more important.

[WarriorKnight]

New turn:

Good news: we finish Economics, dim finishes RP, and india finishes chem.

Bad news: england finishes nd on the intern (ah well) and maya have finished RP as well showing rifling in 8.

Heh, Aquilonia gets almost a full turns worth of overflow from ND which means it can build a uni in almost 1 turn. I think we should probably do that next then it can start spamming cuirasers from next turn (portugal should get MT by then).

India finishing chem means we can go straight onto steel now. I've already requested it off them (and rp from hre).

I'm starting to get paranoid about a pat attack with rifling. It looks like the only person doing 100% research is maya (who is the one doing rifling) while everyone else is either saving gold or seems to be going break even. The good news is that we are fairly high in power, so if they do attack cuddle we are probably one of the teams that probably can defend the easiest. (Inca on the other hand...)

[Sockboy]

Missing out on ND sucks a bit but we only lost a turn, so no biggie. Is that 3 wonders England built in like 5 turns!

Actually I think most of that overflow is from the knight builds, but in any case a uni there seems like a good idea. With the ND chop we can get it done in a turn, which I think is worthwhile, I can't see us saving the chop for much else (Ironworks maybe) and whilst in OR + Bureaucracy it's worth a heap more hammers now than it will be later. Agree with Hammam in Koth, queue it up next turn, two chops come in together so it should be a 1t build.

The last chop for the Globe came in this turn (or will depending on whether a reload is needed or not: see IT thread) I'd like to run the small amount of overflow into a university and then whip the settler like we discussed, although looking at the "or now" site it creates a fork tile just outside Krill's wheat with Koth. With a PAT attack seemingly imminent, maybe now is not the best time to be planting on Krill's borders?

Speaking of Krill, I notice he's retreated his sentry chariot from our borders into his territory, I wonder if that's a preventative measure due to the road we just completed in the area. Is there anyway to know whether the buildup from PAT is for defensive reasons? If they've all turned off research then a mass upgrade strategy seems pretty likely, good thing we'll be in Nationhood soon. Do we have an ETA on Rifling yet?

Moving straight onto Steel sounds great, let's do that. We can't change civics for another 2/3 turns and we need to do it before 4 turns, but if we want to change ASAP, then I think it's 2 turns. I probably should have checked.

[WarriorKnight]

Missing out on ND sucks a bit but we only lost a turn, so no biggie. Is that 3 wonders England built in like 5 turns!

Well, actually it's just 2 but doesn't matter. I'm happy with the one wonder that we got.

Actually I think most of that overflow is from the knight builds, but in any case a uni there seems like a good idea. With the ND chop we can get it done in a turn, which I think is worthwhile, I can't see us saving the chop for much else (Ironworks maybe) and whilst in OR + Bureaucracy it's worth a heap more hammers now than it will be later. Agree with Hammam in Koth, queue it up next turn, two chops come in together so it should be a 1t build.

Hmmm, not sure about using the forest chop on a uni, it's only got decent commerce atm thanks to bureau, and saving them for a wonder later is something i had in mind for them. But I guess i don't really mind.

The last chop for the Globe came in this turn (or will depending on whether a reload is needed or not: see IT thread) I'd like to run the small amount of overflow into a university and then whip the settler like we discussed, although looking at the "or now" site it creates a fork tile just outside Krill's wheat with Koth. With a PAT attack seemingly imminent, maybe now is not the best time to be planting on Krill's borders?

Well, the artist bomb will help immensely, and it should probably allow us to raze bad ass too (if we get enough of a culture effect there, makes it really vulnerable to siege). However, if we don't get an artist then it's probably not the time to settle it yet.

Also Krill has to deal with India as well. India can't attack anyone else realisticaly. Carthage have one of the worst prod/food stats, so after we get rid of the army at fort (which is actually quite big, we'll need to do something about that) there shouldn't be much more from them without getting rid of their high gnp.

Speaking of Krill, I notice he's retreated his sentry chariot from our borders into his territory, I wonder if that's a preventative measure due to the road we just completed in the area. Is there anyway to know whether the buildup from PAT is for defensive reasons? If they've all turned off research then a mass upgrade strategy seems pretty likely, good thing we'll be in Nationhood soon. Do we have an ETA on Rifling yet?

Well, I guess the threat was there so he decided to move them. We should probably try and move in (or at least threaten stuff). If we road the tile SW of conan then india's HA can see what is in lancre.

ETA of rifling comes next turn, when portugal finish MT.

Don't know what PAT is planning, but at least we are probably one of the safest in cuddle regardless (due to high power).

[Sockboy]

Well, actually it's just 2 but doesn't matter. I'm happy with the one wonder that we got.

Guess I miscounted, I think I double counted their GE.

Hmmm, not sure about using the forest chop on a uni, it's only got decent commerce atm thanks to bureau, and saving them for a wonder later is something i had in mind for them. But I guess i don't really mind.

At the moment we're in Bureaucracy and OR, along with the forge that gives us a 100% bonus to production, later we'll lose both Bureaucracy and OR and we'll get a mere 30 hammers for the chop (it's third tier, so 24 base hammers). So by chopping it now we get an extra 18 hammers earlier. The other advantage is we spend one less turn on an infra build in our HE city, which I think is a pretty major point. I'm strongly in favour of the chop. If we miss out on a wonder later down the road due to 30 hammers feel free to bring this up again :neenernee

Well, the artist bomb will help immensely, and it should probably allow us to raze bad ass too (if we get enough of a culture effect there, makes it really vulnerable to siege). However, if we don't get an artist then it's probably not the time to settle it yet.

So here's the rub. Since we no longer need the whip for overflow to complete the Globe should we hold off until we're sure we've got an Artist? I think the odds are something like 50% only which isn't that great to be honest. We had over 90% for an Engineer last time and you remember how that turned out. I'd also like to suggest if we're going for an artist bomb that we plant closer to the corn tile. 1N of the corn will get us the corn and both calendar resources in the BFC. It won't be on a hill, but it will have around 60% cultural protection. Whenever we plant here we need to make sure we've got the military to cover it, I suspect he won't be happy with it.

Don't know what PAT is planning, but at least we are probably one of the safest in cuddle regardless (due to high power).

Not sure if I agree, but being high in power is good anyway. Hopefully we're not behind on the run to rifles and this is mostly moot. I had another look at Carthage's Fort, we can move a slow stack next to their city thanks to our culture. If we do that at the same time as moving a fast stack to one of the fork tiles we can have a pretty good chance at taking it, since the fast stack will pin units into Lakewood. I assume we're still interested in prebuilding cavs.

[WarriorKnight]

If we miss out on a wonder later down the road due to 30 hammers feel free to bring this up again :neenernee

Well, it'll actually be more then 30 hammers thanks to the multipliers, but I will keep it in mind. :neenernee

So here's the rub. Since we no longer need the whip for overflow to complete the Globe should we hold off until we're sure we've got an Artist? I think the odds are something like 50% only which isn't that great to be honest. We had over 90% for an Engineer last time and you remember how that turned out. I'd also like to suggest if we're going for an artist bomb that we plant closer to the corn tile. 1N of the corn will get us the corn and both calendar resources in the BFC. It won't be on a hill, but it will have around 60% cultural protection. Whenever we plant here we need to make sure we've got the military to cover it, I suspect he won't be happy with it.

Yeah, since getting an artist isn't guaranteed, I don't think we need to whip a settler anymore. On the other hand, keeping a settler on standby might be good.

Chances are that if we bomb the corn away, Krill is not going to be happy regardless. 1N of the corn is an interesting suggestion since it means that we'll probably flip bad ass and Koth isn't a target but I'm not sure if we'll be able to plant there for much longer.

Not sure if I agree, but being high in power is good anyway. Hopefully we're not behind on the run to rifles and this is mostly moot. I had another look at Carthage's Fort, we can move a slow stack next to their city thanks to our culture. If we do that at the same time as moving a fast stack to one of the fork tiles we can have a pretty good chance at taking it, since the fast stack will pin units into Lakewood. I assume we're still interested in prebuilding cavs.

Well, paranoia is sometimes a good thing. With a draft camp and plans to prebuild cav, I have difficulty believing that pat will get far if they attack us.

We should check again when zingaras borders expand, since I think that will mean that we can 1 move their city with rifles.

Logging in, I notice a peace treaty from Krill and that India have made peace with Krill (but not the other 2). I've sent a message to them to find out what is going on (I'll play after I see their response).