Q's Quietly Quitting Q Puns

[Qgqqqqq]

Oh, excellent point - I wasn't looking at the start as I wrote it, only remembering what it had. No probably not then.

Which is a bit of a pity, as I'd quite like to try a Hyborem rush in v12 at some point (after testing to see if it works).

[shallow_thought]

I said I was going to be encouraging, but that's not a great initial set of options. I'd personally always be tempted by the Khazad because they are so straightforward, but Ind/Org is so bad that not even an extra trait really saves it.

Playing PHI with a civ that can't build Elder Councils feels suboptimal, particularly with a non-econ second trait.

The Balseraphs are something that's never really clicked for me, but I'm not sure that's their fault. CRE is always useful in a game where culture is so hard to come by (unless you're planning to invest in FoL or OO anyway), and I guess Summoner meshes quite well with other parts of the Balseraphs once you get far enough. Plus some free money and cheaper upgrades? I'd probably suggest this as the least bad option if you're happy with the clowns set of tricks. 

How bad could a re-spin get? It sounds as if that is your preferred option.

[Qgqqqqq]

I agree entirely. Khazad with this start is great, but IND is the worst real trait in the game, and ORG is extremely meh - no one builds courthouses, so it's mainly cheap lighthouses that matter.

Alexis is a disaster - I honestly think PHI should change - and the only thing it really helps is a Moroi rush - but we'd be far from BW and the map should be big.

Keelyn is very reasonable. But I don't think Bals excite me enough, and the tech isn't the best. Even though Bals are very good.

So I'm 90% sure I'm going to reroll, but I'm still mulling it over.

[Qgqqqqq]

The thing about Keelyn is she's actually a very good leader. SUM puppets are crazy strong (even with nerfs) once you reach mages, so you have a strong late game to build around. As you've mentioned, CRE is a strong trait in FFH2, and Balseraphs have a pretty great economy - between Freaks, their worldspell and starting with agriculture (normally) - which helps keep you going till then.

The trouble with that is (a) I've never gotten my head around the Bals lifestyle, and agriculture is a weakish start, (b) we're not expecting much mana on the map, which nerfs mages a little, and © more importantly, she's a bit boring. I'd snap Perpentch up in an instant - while he often is weaker later on, three traits is fun and generally strong.

But maybe I should just accept Keelyn.

[mackoti]

I agree entirely. Khazad with this start is great, but IND is the worst real trait in the game, and ORG is extremely meh - no one builds courthouses, so it's mainly cheap lighthouses that matter.

Alexis is a disaster - I honestly think PHI should change - and the only thing it really helps is a Moroi rush - but we'd be far from BW and the map should be big.

Keelyn is very reasonable. But I don't think Bals excite me enough, and the tech isn't the best. Even though Bals are very good.

So I'm 90% sure I'm going to reroll, but I'm still mulling it over.

I think Kazad problem is no mages thing otherwise i would consider this dude one of the stronest n the game.Without mages is like playing with severe handicap.
Yeah i think Vampires were over nerfed. I think theyr world spell should return when ever you want to use it.

[Qgqqqqq]

Well, the problem with vampires is the last time we rolled back nerfs, they immediately won the next game. Not that I necessarily disagree.

Also, really? You think IND/ORG is the strongest? I like Khazad forges as much as anyone, but I don't think it's worth a dead trait for 120t. Edit: Oh, I forgot it boosted worker production. Still, we start with a worker.

Edit2: Also, I should check my own (admittedly five-year-old) changelogs:
• Calabim can build Elder Council's if they have the Philisophical trait

[Qgqqqqq]

Oh, and it appears I nerfed Bals last year (normal length gold age is the big one, plus the nerf to 0 str puppets).

Screw it. Reroll all. (I get a second reroll if I want it, right?)

[RefSteel]

We start with a worker, right?

(I get a second reroll if I want it, right?)

Yup, and yup - that's my understanding! I also appreciate the thoughts on the perceived strength of the various civs!

[fireblaze]

Reporting for duty! I shall catch up posthaste

e. that was fast! Yeah ind is such a meme trait I see a bit of red when I roll into it, completely lacking in rizz. I'm used to EMM and iirc EitB has weaker ocean buildings, but pairing faster lighthouses with better harbors/shipyards in that can at least be sorta fun in making non-lanuns (like Sheelba) pseudo/decent naval/coast civs as a flex option. Also I thiiink the cheaper grigori courthouses on them is decent but idk the exact math and curves, like you great people are a bit of a weakness of mine and adventurers oscilate between feeling OP and very underwhelming depending on a few rolls and my mood for the day

[RefSteel]

Okay, everybody's made their first-round choices, so here are your second round options:

Tebryn (Arcane/Summoner) of the Sheaim (Mysticism)
Rivanna (Organized/Summoner) of the Svartalfar (Animal Husbandry OR Calendar)
Rhoanna (Expansive/Financial) of the Hippus (Animal Husbandry OR Calendar)

If you don't like any of them, you can ask for one last reroll from among the civs you haven't yet rolled and no one else has yet picked in the third round.