[NO PLAYERS] Map and Lurker Thread

[RefSteel]

Wellllll here goes! Last time, I was afraid of making the map too large and apparently underestimated the amount of space that people expect for a game of FfH, so I'm glad it turned out to be fun anyway! This time ... I'm probably getting more than a little over-ambitious with these starts, to say nothing of other map concepts. You tell me....

[EDIT: All starts superseded, most with substantial changes! See below!]

[RefSteel]

Note land resources on water tiles with the appropriate (land) tile improvement provide their resources to anyone who gets culture on them (with a trade connection to that body of water) just like fishing boats, but of course you don't get the tile yield without fishing. If pillaged however, the improvement (and therefore resource and most of the yield) is lost permanently; there's no way to rebuild it. Land and water resources with the wrong tile improvements to connect them just provide their base yield (e.g. +1h for stone in BtS) on top of whatever the base tile and/or improvement gives.

[fireblaze]

lurkergang rise up

I actually love the idea of the coastal resources, but I just also know if I got mine pillaged with no way to rebuild i'd seethe about it for the rest of the campaign lol

[Qgqqqqq]

Should have checked the forums before messaging you! Haven't updated these in the light of seeing the water improvements.

: I like the overall shape mostly. The bottom three civs look to have a good balance of land and sea expansion opportunities. The top three I'm a bit more worried that they're land poor / forced to expand along the coast
: I think there might also be less land than expected given the amount given to the arctic poles. Run it through novice but that also looks better in the south generally
: In terms of starts, eyeballing as I think the pic is more up to date than the wbsave:
* I'd make a consistent choice re starting on coast vs moving to start on coast, as one will bias. I think it's reasonable to suggest they start on coast if there are decent alternatives.
* there's a few res showing up in oceans which might be something else/supposed to be elsewhere? I assume the squares are cotton/pearls
* [Start A] NW probably stays put, unless they want AH for some reason. Probably stays put if you place them 2E as well, for the reasons discussed. Actually might go 2S in that position. Quite commerce poor pre fishing / compared to others. River welcomed.
* [Start E] Central North never moves city. Okay food wise with river on 3F tiles. Perhaps a bit skimpy for both of these. Reasonably balanced commerce wise with the W.
* [Start D] E would maybe move with fishing 2N1E, though loses the wine. Not sure if the silk is in the ocean. Like the river.
* [Start B] SE, same as above. Tempting to move if you'll get fishing early tho loses the wines.
* [Start C] Central S ludicrously OP compared to others. Never moves. Gem wet corn is a tier above. I guess the balance is you don't start with mining? Still. If the dye is land based might be worth moving to.
* [Start F] W I dont think worth moving
: Oh sorry, its toroidial? I think if you can make the ice land more settle able it might alleviate the northern players challenges. As is the toroidial makes little difference except in dog piling potential.

[Qgqqqqq]

Amusingly, the most powerful start © also gets the best improvement. I think I would potentially move there. I think the power of those improvements should be consistent if they're going to be available at the starting city, given the head start they can give if you have them from the game start.

The thing I would say is this definitely provides new options for people in terms of starting with Fishing or not, which as mentioned I wouldn't otherwise prioritise against other techs. It's difficult to balance that correctly though given that it's somewhat affecting the strategy space because different civs have these options vs. not. I think if everyone started with Fishing it would be fine - otherwise, as much as I enjoy them, perhaps they need to be a little tuned down.

[RefSteel]

I updated the first post with game mechanics descriptions of the special coast tile for each start. Q, thanks for helping to sanity-check the starts for me - I threw them up here exactly for that purpose - and anyone else's thoughts would be welcome too! I should have made the weird tiles' actual effects more explicit though, and have done so now.

Q, I think you transposed A & F? I'll assume that's right. So:

First, I'm completely content if nobody moves, or if everybody does, or if it's a mix, so long as everyone stays more or less in the starting area. (Each start actually has at least three tiles they could settle on by their second turn with various trade-offs, though in some or all cases, some of those trade-offs might be regarded as extremely easy calls.) I assigned the Settlers to coastal or non-coastal starting tiles at random; if you think some should be swapped with other units in some of the starts, let me know - but I'd rather not mirror starts even to the extent of "all (initially) coastal" or "all (initially) off coast" if I can help it. If players move so that they're all off or on coast in the actual game, that's fine though.

Overpowered Start C: If the Corn is changed to a Rice, is that good enough, or does it need to be weakened more? Turning the southern FP to featureless grass? Moving the Gems 1E to the off-river hill? Putting a jungle on Murex Cove itself to make it a 0/0/7 (with Fishing) + Dyes (with Calendar) +25% tile defense (instead of a 1/0/7 with Fishing + Dyes with Calendar +10% tile defense)? Also, now that I've posted the actual information on the special tiles, is 1/0/7 + Luxury with Calendar indeed the best (against e.g. 1/2/4 + Marble or 2/1/3 + cottage growth or 2/2/2 unpillageable, etc...)?

Perhaps-A-Bit-Skimpy Start E: What would it take to bring it into line? Say a floodplain in place of the grassland 1S of the Cow? Shifting the river to irrigate the Wheat? Both?

Commerce-Poor Start F: By "river welcomed" do you mean it needs more riverside tiles? (Easily doable.) Or does it need something more - like irrigating the corn or turning the grassland N of the (land) Marble into a floodplain?

Do you think the other starts are pretty well balanced for this game set-up, or...?

(Note, answers to these questions and/or alternate opinions would be very welcome from others as well!)

[RefSteel]

I've updated all six starts - not one escaped editing - please (anyone, even you, Mack!) let me know what's still wrong with them; I was definitely over-ambitious with these, and there's surely still something ludicrous that I missed!

[EDIT: Superseded!  See below.]

[RefSteel]

(Update: I edited Start C slightly, and posted the new picture in the post above. I replaced its grass river hill sheep and dry plains hill sheep with two grass river hill deer, shifting the river slightly to permit this.)

[fireblaze]

I wonder if the two with special commerce coastal tiles will be particularly strong -- I think they were both around second city placements too?

[Qgqqqqq]

Went through to balance some. Ran out of time near the end unfortunately! Getting closer, but still room imo.

A:
• 5/2/1 Agr
• 5/0/2 Fish
• 1/2/4 Fish/Mar
• 3/0/4 Wine
• 5/0/1 Hunt
• 5 grass farms, 7 with mining

• 4/2 AH
• 5/2/1 Agr
• 5/0/1 Hunt
• 2/1/4 Wine
• 3/2/0 AH
• 5 grass farms, 7 with mining
Suggestion: move the settler off the hill, make him really choose where to settle. Decently balanced otherwise. Is there anything marble could get you? Heron Throne, Bone Palace? Suggest balancing marble across locations or choosing another tile for the fish.

B
• 5/0/2 Fish
• 5/2/1 Agr
• 4/1/2 Fish
• 1/3/1 Hunt
• 1/1/4 Wine
• 5 grass farms

• 5/2/1 Agr
• 5/1/1 AH
• 4/1/1 AH
• 1/3/1 Hunt
• 5 grass farms

Suggestion: South is lacking commerce, move the wine 1S. Otherwise, reasonably balanced against one another. A little bit less commerce than start A, a bit weaker overall IMO

C
• (Had to stop doing these here, ran out of time.

Suggestion: still the strongest start commerce wise by a country mile, admittedly gated slightly. Would prefer cotton or silk instead of dye in the north - I know hammers from the marble are also strong, but a 7c tile from t3 is incredible, easily catches any other start for research. Gems I think should go off the river. Doesn't have the AH option that other starts have - though to be fair, hunting is a much stronger option if you can get away with it. I get that you don't want to balance that though.

D
Seems balanced generally, though I'd count the food / grass irrigated tiles if I had time. Silk tile is okay.

E
This start doesn't have a realistic inland option. Should have at least one more food tile. It also is missing early happy relative to other starts (hunting is an expensive tech) - would add cotton for variety or wine to be boring / standard. The coastal tile is fine - starts weaker, gets a bit stronger but not insane.

F

Seems pretty balanced, though notably fewer unforested river grass tiles. Would strip forests back.