Peter of Egypt - Vets - Cyneheard

[Cyneheard]

Welcome to PBEM #4, the Veteran's game.

Always War!
Cannot Talk Or Negotiate!
Yea, though I walk through the valley of shadow and death, my cup shalt be run over with the blood of mine enemies.

If you are a lurker, welcome. I will do my best to make this thread enlightening of both my thought process as well as the actions of the game itself.

If you are in the Veteran's game, or the Green game, please leave now.

[Cyneheard]

Second post to fill space.

He is the prince who was promised. His is the song of Ice and Fire.

Well, maybe not so much. We'll see.

I'm using the Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) series for my naming scheme. Below is Eddard Stark, lord of Winterfell. This is a fantasy series at the scale of LOTR, but instead of black-and-white, it's all shades of grey, and where anybody can die. If you screw up, you're probably dead. Kind of like this game.



Now, if you want to avoid spoilers about the ASOIAF series, you might want to stop reading now...

If you haven't read the books, they're more interesting than this thread, but they'll also be a lot longer. 4 books, ~900 pages per. So, go start reading, and then check back with me in about 3 months. Hopefully I'll still be able to say "I'm not dead yet!"

[Cyneheard]

Reserved for a future Table of Contents.

Eventually, one will be needed, hopefully. Just seems like it's a good practice to prepare for.

[Cyneheard]

Before we start, I should probably give a quick hits on what I plan to expect from the other five teams:

Darrelljs
Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Babylon (Agri/Wheel; Garden; Bowman).

Darrelljs, like most other players in this game, are in PB3. So, there are some things I've gained about each of them from interacting with them directly. And I am going to avoid speaking any more of that, for spoilers in that game. If you're lurking us in PB3, I'll probably do a write-up of what I think of each of the five PLAYERS from this game based on my interactions with them in that one.

Victoria: Clearly, Speaker feels that Imperialistic is a very strong trait in an AW CTON. Financial, well, self-teching always needs extra income. So, I expect lots of cities, cottage economy, and Bowmen to assist in defense.
Babylon: Agriculture/Wheel is a very nice start (more on this below, when talking about Egypt). The Garden, well... +2 health from a Colosseum? It's OK.
Bowmen, however, should be nice for the early-game. Bowmen can remove warrior chokes no matter what, and are much stronger against axes.


Whosit:
Pacal (Fin/Exp) of China (Agri/Mining; Cho-Ko-Nus, Pavilion)

Whosit's been running Rome in PB2, and is a dedicated lurker in PB3.

Agri/Mining: A very interesting set of starting techs. One option with Agri/Mining is to tech BW, growing to size 2 while building a warrior, and then whipping a worker. It depends a little on your land, but it's an interesting way to go.
Cho-Ko-Nus: Crossbows with collateral. A unit with no hard counter (Horse Archers have mobility and are cheaper, longbows for city defense), they'll be a force to be reckoned with later.
Pavilion: God, I hope I don't have to fight culture wars.

Sunrise089 + Scooter:
Suleiman (Phi/Imp) of Inca (Myst/Agri; Quechua; Terrace)

"General Sunrise". 'Nuff said.

Mysticism/Agriculture: Not the best start.
Quechuas, however, are going to be annoying. Combat I means I don't get odds on them on flat. Being anti-archer, well, that isn't going to work. However, Quechuas don't have a prayer against War Chariots.
Terrace, well, we all know how powerful the Terrace is. Clearly, Speaker was concerned about Expansive Terraces, and that's why instead of Joao, Sunrise gets Suleiman.

Kylearan:
Catherine (Cre/Imp) of Maya (Myst/Mining; Holkans; Ball Court)

An SP veteran, very well-versed in Civ. Will he be able to adjust to the cutthroat nature and large armies inherent to this type of MP play? We shall see.

Mysticism/Mining: Fast Bronze Working for a worker whip is possible, but unlike China he can't start farming right away.
Holkans: However, these guys can come out very, very soon, if he wishes. Just needs BW and Hunting, and all of a sudden Egypt's best unit is in a lot of trouble...this is the civ I really don't want to be next to. Laugh if that's the case, lurkers, I know you will.
Ball Court: Extra happiness. As a Creative civ for 1/2 price Ball Courts. What isn't there to like?

Krill:
Darius (Fin/Org) of Ottomans (Agri/Wheel; Janissaries; Hammam)

It's...Krill. He's Krilly. More in PB3 spoiler thread about him to come.

Agri/Wheel: Very solid, see above and the next post, where I talk about Egypt.
Janissaries: Very late, but going to have quite a window of opportunity with them. If Krill is still alive at that point, watch out.
Hammam: +2 happy, on a building that comes very early and is needed often enough anyway. Very powerful. With Stone, he'll probably prioritize Math for Hammams and HG.

[novice]

If you haven't read the books, they're more interesting than this thread, but they'll also be a lot longer. 4 books, ~900 pages per. So, go start reading, and then check back with me in about 3 months. Hopefully I'll still be able to say "I'm not dead yet!"

Well, will you tell us how the ASOIAF saga continues?

There's also a fun strategy board game based on the books, called a Game of Thrones. Good theme!

[Cyneheard]

Another relevant quote (from the first book, A Game of Thrones):
"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."

So, what have we here?

Peter:
Philosophical/Expansive:
I love Expansive, it's been great. Cheap workers, cheap granaries, and extra health later is always useful. It's a very rare game where Expansive isn't a useful trait.
Philo, it's not the trait I'm best at leveraging. However, Philosophical does go really well with the Obelisk.

Egypt:
Agriculture + The Wheel: All I need is AH for horses, and then it's War Chariot time.

War Chariots: Wow, these guys are impressive. Spears are a problem, but they're a lot more likely to have 1 suicided chariot and then the 2nd chariot cleaning up the kill. Axes, axes are just dead. At 5XP, they're equal to un-promoted or flanking-line HAs. At 10XP (Formation), they can beat even Combat II HAs. And for only 30 hammers...

Obelisk: Like a monument, but two extra priest slots.
There are several ways to go with this. One possibility is simply to use a Great Prophet to lightbulb Theology: I'll be surprised if I DON'T do this, to be honest. Theo requires only Writing and Monotheism, and Theocratic WCs starting with 2 promos will be very nice; just add a few axes for anti-spear work, and spears for HAs, and we have an army.
Another is to Oracle COL, and then 2 prophets can lightbulb Theology and Civil Service: this works as long as I avoid Monarchy. That might be very dangerous, to stay away from Monarchy for so long, but with Philo + 2 priest slots, I can get 16GPP out of the Oracle city, and 12GPP out of a non-Oracle city. Stonehenge could also provide GPP, but Henge + Oracle is probably too many hammers.

This was basically all that I thought through before starting to play.

[Cyneheard]

T0: (Note: These screenshots are mostly from the first time that I played, before I decided on my naming theme)

I open the save to this lovely picture:



And then, saw this:



I wasn't expecting Speaker to give us a plains hill plant for our settlers. That extra hammer, especially as Expansive (essentially guarantees the +1 hammer while building a worker), is a huge boost in the early game. However, I am NOT going to settle where I don't get a wet grass corn tile. Plains hill vs. losing a grass cow? Not sure what I'd do if that was the case. But a 6/0/1 corn? Yes, please!

So, after moving the warrior 1NW (this was a mistake; I should've done 1SE and checked if I wanted to move the settler 1S), I then settled:



Now, if I had seen the stone, would I have moved the settler 1S? Benefits:
Stone in 2nd ring (1/4/0) tile
Costs: 1t (moving settler)
1 worker turn (by being next to the corn, I can start improving it immediately. However, that worker would have instead 1/2-roaded the cow, instead.
1 less grass hill (1/3/0), one more peak. And the stone will still be in my borders T25, and there's no way I'd be heading to quarry the stone before then, anyway.

I do like this capital site, though. +9 food surplus working the corn, cows, and an FP cottage, 4 grass and 2 plains hills, 7 forests is decent enough, and 8 river grass for cottaging.

[Cyneheard]

I should also mention that I changed my tech pick after taking those screenshots: I'm going Animal Husbandry -Mining - Bronze Working. With worker first, I want to go farm corn (4t) - pasture cow (3t) and then probably chop a forest.

Egypt's capital is King's Landing, and our exploring warrior is Ser Barristan Selmy.

Oh, here's a useful Expansive trick when you've got a 1-hammer plant and a plains hill forest in the outer part of your BFC, and are going worker first (in some contexts):

On quick speed, this is true for anyone but Sury (his calculus is slightly different). On normal speed, this is only true for Sury.

So, my borders pop t3. (These are all after end of turn (EOT) numbers)
T0: 4/40
T1: 8/40
T2: 12/40
T3 on: Adding 5hpt (+1 expansive bonus), so 17, 22, 27...
T8: After this turn, I would be at 42/40. This seems like it would be 2 hammers of overflow. But, I produced those hammers with a 25% bonus. So, the game takes those 2 hammers of overflow, and turns them into base hammers: Base Hammers From Overflow = FLOOR (Overflow/(1+Modifiers)) = FLOOR(2 / 1.25) = 1. (Then, those base hammers + next turn's production would get the 25% bonus if I started a second worker). So, I would only get 1 hammer of overflow. However, I can work the corn tile for 2 extra turns, and get 2 extra commerce, at the expense of 1 hammer. I think (have to re-evaluate) under my micro plan, the 1 hammer lost doesn't make a difference, and will probably get rounded off eventually with more workers being built. On Normal speed, Sury has the same effect, it just takes 4 more turns to build the worker.

For Sury, on Quick, his borders pop T2. So I could trade 3 commerce (working 3/0/1) for 2 hammers (3 overflow reduced to 2). That isn't such a good trade, and I'd rather have the 2 hammers.

[Cyneheard]

So, let's try to tackle the micro plan.

I'm a very quantitative-oriented person, so expect lots of numbers and statistics and such. This is one way to compensate for my relative inexperience compared to several of these players.

This basically assumes that combat with opponents doesn't mess me up over the next 20-25t.

Tech costs, in time, are basically: 7t AH, 4t for Mining, and 8t for BW. I'd have to run a WB sim (this was done on paper) to confirm overflow, extra commerce, etc. etc., but that's a worst-case scenario.
Population costs in food: 14, 16, 17, 18.

So, T9, I'll have completed my worker with 0 hammers of overflow. This worker shall be named Mikken, the blacksmith of Winterfell. Probably going to have lots of blacksmiths working. Mikken begins farming the corn (4t). I start a warrior, working the plains hill forest.
After EOT: 0/14 food, 4/10 hammers
T10: Mikken Farm (3t). 0/14 food, 8/10 hammers.
T11: Farm (2t). Switch to corn. 3/14 food, 9/10 hammers.
T12: Farm completes. 9/14 food, 10/10 hammers.
T13: Move Mikken 1E onto cow. Pasture (3t). 15/14 food, 1/10 hammers on warrior #2.
T14: Pasture (2t). Size 2. Working max food (+7 fpt). 8/16 food, 2/10 hammers.
T15: Pasture completes. 16/16 food, 5/10 hammers.
T16: Mikken moves onto a grass hill. At size 3, max food is (6/0/1 corn, 4/2/1 cow, 3/0/1 FP, 2/1/1 capital: +9fpt, +3hpt). 9/17 food, 8/10 hammers.
T17: Mines (3t). Switch from FP to grass forest. 17/17 food, 12/10 hammers.
T18: Mines (2t). Am at size 4. Start either worker #2 or settler #1, not sure which. Will have to think about that in the days and weeks ahead. If I do a worker, that will be (6/0/1, 4/2/1, 0/3/0, 3/0/1, 2/1/1, +2h overflow: +7 food + 8*1.25 = 17/40 on the worker. Future turns can produce 16/40 (switching from 3/0/1 to 1/3/1 mine). I'll probably do a settler first, then whip a worker for 2 pop after revolting to slavery, and overflowing into who knows what (granary?).
The worker has to be at 14/40 for me to be able to whip it for 2 pop, and I produce more than that per turn. Might be more efficient to whip the settler, then.

[Cort]

I'm using the Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) series for my naming scheme. Below is Eddard Stark, lord of Winterfell. This is a fantasy series at the scale of LOTR, but instead of black-and-white, it's all shades of grey, and where anybody can die. "

Great naming scheme Cyneheard. Agree that it is a terrific series and very well drawn characters. At least you can console yourself that if you die in game, G.R.R.M can raise you from the dead! Good luck!