Map creation thread

[haphazard1]

Players of FFH2 PBEM3 -- stay out! Spoilers abound.

Really.

Tons

and

tons

of

spoilers.

It's

a

map

thread

after

all!

OK, that should do for now.

[haphazard1]

OK, I was checking the FFH2 PBEM3 forum to see if the game had gotten off the ground yet and saw that a map maker was needed. I have not prepared a map for an MP game before, but since no one else had volunteered I decided to see what I could do.

The players wanted an Erebus Continents map, mostly natural with only very light editing. Most of the players seemed to want a fair bit of land available, so I went with a standard map and medium sea level. This would normally get 7 players rather than the 6 this game actually has, so the map should be roomy with plenty of space to spawn barbs. The players also wanted all unique features, but with the Big 3 (Yggdrasil, Remnant of Patria, and Dragon Bones) not too close to anyone's start. Finally, all civs should be reachable by land or by coastal connections -- no isolated starts.

I rolled several maps, with an eye on finding something where the civs started reasonably well distributed -- everyone should be able to get a first ring of cities unless someone is really slow expanding or someone pushes very aggressively. Second rings may start running into conflicts, but there should be plenty of land available.

After discarding several maps for ridiculous imbalances (one put Yggdrasil, Remnant of Patria, Dragon Bones, gold, and plains incense all within 5 tiles of one civ's start while another had 3 civs starting in a triangle, each about 8 tiles from the other two ), I got one which seemed promising. I did end up moving the Bannor who started much too close to two other civs. I did a little tinkering with the starts to add food where it was not available, and a couple commerce resources where there was nothing. But the starts are still far from mirrors of one another -- the Erebus Continents map tries to "flavor" the starts so elves get forests, Lanun get coast, Malakim get desert, etc.

Yggdrasil and Dragon Bones seemed OK where they were, but Remnant of Patria was in the Lanun BFC and had to be moved. I dropped it into the middle of the continent, and also moved the Guardian of Pristin Pass next to it to discourage early settlement.

Here are the starts -- I would appreciate advice on whether things are even enough for a good game. (Especially the Malakim....) Again, lightly edited was the request, so I tried not to do too much.

Warrior Knight - Einion Logos/Elohim - this would be a nice start for the Ljosalfar, actually. But there is rice, wine, cow, tons of river grasslands.



Irgy - Tebryn Arbandi/Sheaim - all the gems are jungled, in case that is not visible (not my doing, they came that way). But still a pretty decent start, and once jungle can be cleared the gems will be outstanding.



Mr. Yellow - Sabathiel/Bannor - the Bannor were moved from right next to the Dragon Bones. But this area looked good and was reasonably spaced from the other starts. A lot of desert to the south but also numerous flood plains, and some good land east and west.



Nyktorion - Thessa/Ljosalfar - The double silks were already present, not entirely sure about them. That line of mountains presents some interesting choices for exploration and expansion -- I considered punching a hole in the middle to open things up more but left it alone (lightly edited theme).



Mardoc - Hannah the Irin/Lanun - jungles to deal with but plenty of coastline. The Lanun have plenty of room, especially if they expand to the island to their east.



Thoth - Varn Gossam/Malakim - this is the start I feel least sure of. Huge numbers of flood plains, with some good resources nearby but not right at the start. (This was all the Erebus Continents script, with civ "flavor"; deserts for the Malakim, and then flood plains to make the desert livable.) I worry it could be much too strong as aristofarms (or as cottages), but there are also very few hammers available early on.



World Builder file is attached as well for more detailed examination. Advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated -- I would hate to screw this up, since the players will be putting a lot of time into the game.

One major item I did not manipulate at all was strategic resources. Copper is very scarce, as is iron. Some civs have nothing at all anywhere nearby -- the Sheaim have nothing within first or second ring, Lanun the same, while Ljosalfar have copper in the BFC. I would really like some advice on this -- should these be equalized, left as generated, placed only between civs, other? I can see arguments for any of these courses of action, but so far have stuck to the "lightly edited" theme and done nothing.

[Selrahc]

Not entirely balanced... but they wanted a lightly edited map so that's to be expected.

Give em all a similarly hard to get copper, and move a source of mana close to each and have done with it.

[Tatan]

Yeah, I would just give everyone a near-ish mana and copper.

Re: Malakim start: perhaps simply add a couple desert hills? Still not really balanced but they DID want lightly edited.

[Bobchillingworth]

Make sure that the Ljo start with two scouts instead of a scout + warrior, the Malakim have a Lightbringer instead of a scout, and that everyone else has a scout / warrior pair. Also, don't forget to give everyone's settler the starting settler bonus promotion (+2 movement, extra sight).


Otherwise looks pretty good, I agree on giving the Malakim at least a plains hill (or scrub desert hill) to work. Actually, you might want to edit in a couple plains forests within their BFC, since it looks like right now they'll have serious initial health problems that could prove crippling. A plains cow would also give both health and some production. Edit- I didn't realize that they have a plains cow already close to the capital- I'd move it 1W, and place a forest hill on that plains tile 1W of the wheat, and that should suffice.


The nice Ljo start is balanced by the lack of forests outside of the capital. You could always just move one of the silks. You might want to move the Bannor gems so that it they need an expansion to reach them tho, since its notably better than the luxury tiles everyone else has. Not a big deal really, if you do move it maybe give them a silk as a replacement or something. Edit- looking at the map again, maybe just switch their start with the Eloheim or Sheaim- that would give them more land to cottage for Crusade, and wouldn't have an adverse impact on whoever gets the former Bannor start.

[uberfish]

Taking a look at the balance for you

Bannor: Corn and gems is a very nice start, but there's a lot of awkwardly placed mountains around and this civ is very dependent on standard troops and will suffer without metals. Really needs accessible bronze at least.

Elohim: Decent start, not the best initial commerce but gold/incense/copper are within reach for a 2nd city, some interesting choices to be made. Huge amount of expansion room and flexibility balanced by the fact that they're right in the middle of the map with 4 neighbours. Don't need editing.

Sheaim: Super defensible position. That 3-gem city is balanced by the fact that they'll need Bronze working to unlock it. Then further to the north there's a cluster of nice resources around Dragon Bones area which can be contested by 3 civs which is a good thing. Also don't need editing.

Lanun: What is the world generator thinking, starting them in the middle of the jungle without any sea resources?? I'd move them a few tiles NW so they don't have a guessing game of which direction to migrate just to get some usable tiles, while moving some of those pearls to avoid a 4 pirate port + 2 pearl capital on that little peninsula. Alternatively, replace some of that jungle around the starting settler location. Lack of metals is also a problem.

Ljosalfar: Good capital site, but a serious lack of good 2nd city sites compared to the other civs. However they're very likely to get 2 free world feature mana sources and expanding in that direction leads to the large eastern forest. I'd put a watchtower on the east end of their peninsula and extend that island a couple of tiles westwards so that they'll know about it and have an interesting choice whether to settle it or not with Pirates in the game...

Malakim: as it stands they have to choose between super early commerce (going south for incense) and having decent capital production/health (going north for hills and wheat/sheep). Still going to be an explosive start with very quick workers and settlers due to the floodplains, tons of Aristo farms and a strong production city site at the Pool of Tears + iron + gold. If that's not enough they have a double oasis + FP + Pyre and a large back yard to expand into uncontested. I think you're right to worry about them snowballing early and running away with the game. Also the desert might just be a bit too large giving them too much of an advantage over the Bannor in the early expansion phase.

[SevenSpirits]

I think trying to edit start position balance when they have super-settlers (especially on the Erebus map script) is a fool's errand. Given your mandate I wouldn't make any more changes. Some starts are better than others but that's unavoidable.

[Maksim]

For a lightly edited map, that's pretty balanced. Sure, copper isn't around, but that makes for a fun game too. Remove it from the Malakim, and you are good to go.

Elohim - good starting position; let's assume it as the default.

Bannor - maybe remove a few peaks to the west?

Ljos - why is there an ice on a tile 3W 1N of their position? Also, punch a hole or two in the mountain range to the west. We don't want too much isolation here - it would be boring for lurkers. I'd also agree with uberfish's suggestion of giving them some notice of the island to the east - perhaps extend it one tile west, so they can notice the two tiles of coast to their east, and understand that there is a landmass there?

Sheaim - punch a couple of holes in the mountain range to the north-west. Otherwise it's too isolated, which is boring.

Lanun - jungle sucks, especially for a civ that doesn't start with Crafting. Remove some jungle around the starting position, and add a couple of crabs - one in the BFC of the settler (say, 2N of the wine), one on the western side of the island, perhaps?

Malakim - as mentioned earlier, how about a radical solution: remove the Copper? This would make defending the empire a more difficult task, it's only a small edit, and it brings the strategic resources in line with other civs. Don't worry about adding hills (though add a desert hill or two, if you feel like it) - with settler visibility, it's their job to consider moving somewhere where they'll have production as well.

[haphazard1]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

A few specifics:

Make sure that the Ljo start with two scouts instead of a scout + warrior, the Malakim have a Lightbringer instead of a scout, and that everyone else has a scout / warrior pair. Also, don't forget to give everyone's settler the starting settler bonus promotion (+2 movement, extra sight).

I have the starting units right (I did check this), but currently all the settlers are only standard settlers. I could give them all the bonus movement and sight, although significant movement from the starts could create more imbalances as I have not modified potential first ring sites. But sticking to the lightly edited theme, I guess I should add it and let the chips fall where they may.

Otherwise looks pretty good, I agree on giving the Malakim at least a plains hill (or scrub desert hill) to work. Actually, you might want to edit in a couple plains forests within their BFC, since it looks like right now they'll have serious initial health problems that could prove crippling. A plains cow would also give both health and some production. Edit- I didn't realize that they have a plains cow already close to the capital- I'd move it 1W, and place a forest hill on that plains tile 1W of the wheat, and that should suffice.

The lack of early hammers, and possibly also health, is one of the negatives of the Malakim start. They already have a ton of favorable land, I did not want to make their start stronger.

The nice Ljo start is balanced by the lack of forests outside of the capital. You could always just move one of the silks. You might want to move the Bannor gems so that it they need an expansion to reach them tho, since its notably better than the luxury tiles everyone else has. Not a big deal really, if you do move it maybe give them a silk as a replacement or something. Edit- looking at the map again, maybe just switch their start with the Eloheim or Sheaim- that would give them more land to cottage for Crusade, and wouldn't have an adverse impact on whoever gets the former Bannor start.

Taking a look at the balance for you

Bannor: Corn and gems is a very nice start, but there's a lot of awkwardly placed mountains around and this civ is very dependent on standard troops and will suffer without metals. Really needs accessible bronze at least.

For the Bannor, maybe improve the land directly to their west a bit (mountains to hills) and add a copper there? There is less cottagable tiles here than their original start, although there are a lot of flood plains to the east and south.

Elohim: Decent start, not the best initial commerce but gold/incense/copper are within reach for a 2nd city, some interesting choices to be made. Huge amount of expansion room and flexibility balanced by the fact that they're right in the middle of the map with 4 neighbours. Don't need editing.

I did not touch this start at all, it looked very good.

Sheaim: Super defensible position. That 3-gem city is balanced by the fact that they'll need Bronze working to unlock it. Then further to the north there's a cluster of nice resources around Dragon Bones area which can be contested by 3 civs which is a good thing. Also don't need editing.

I really liked where the Dragon Bones popped up -- it should be a source of conflict, assuming the Ljos and Sheaim scout it early enough. Elohim know where it is, of course.

That line of mountains is probably too isolating. Maybe that little line of hills should have an opening at the northwest end? Still extremely defensible (for both sides of the range).

Lanun: What is the world generator thinking, starting them in the middle of the jungle without any sea resources?? I'd move them a few tiles NW so they don't have a guessing game of which direction to migrate just to get some usable tiles, while moving some of those pearls to avoid a 4 pirate port + 2 pearl capital on that little peninsula. Alternatively, replace some of that jungle around the starting settler location. Lack of metals is also a problem.

I can do a little editing here, as the consensus seems to be that this is poor compared to the other starts. Should the jungle just disappear, or maybe some of it can become forests? Maybe a copper to the northwest, not too close but second ring perhaps.

Ljosalfar: Good capital site, but a serious lack of good 2nd city sites compared to the other civs. However they're very likely to get 2 free world feature mana sources and expanding in that direction leads to the large eastern forest. I'd put a watchtower on the east end of their peninsula and extend that island a couple of tiles westwards so that they'll know about it and have an interesting choice whether to settle it or not with Pirates in the game...

Interesting idea, especially since that island is pretty nice land and has Yggdrasil. I will make sure it is visible that something is over there.

Malakim: as it stands they have to choose between super early commerce (going south for incense) and having decent capital production/health (going north for hills and wheat/sheep). Still going to be an explosive start with very quick workers and settlers due to the floodplains, tons of Aristo farms and a strong production city site at the Pool of Tears + iron + gold. If that's not enough they have a double oasis + FP + Pyre and a large back yard to expand into uncontested. I think you're right to worry about them snowballing early and running away with the game. Also the desert might just be a bit too large giving them too much of an advantage over the Bannor in the early expansion phase.

I think this start needs to be weakened a bit, or perhaps some of the secondary sites should be? The large numbers of flood plains are already very powerful, but there is not really any way to get rid of those without losing the "flavor" factor of the Erebus Continents map.

I think trying to edit start position balance when they have super-settlers (especially on the Erebus map script) is a fool's errand. Given your mandate I wouldn't make any more changes. Some starts are better than others but that's unavoidable.

OK, sounds like I should definitely add the movement/sight promotion back onto all the settlers.

For a lightly edited map, that's pretty balanced. Sure, copper isn't around, but that makes for a fun game too. Remove it from the Malakim, and you are good to go.

Elohim - good starting position; let's assume it as the default.

Bannor - maybe remove a few peaks to the west?

I will do a little editing around the Bannor, give them a bit better land for cities after the capital.

Ljos - why is there an ice on a tile 3W 1N of their position? Also, punch a hole or two in the mountain range to the west. We don't want too much isolation here - it would be boring for lurkers. I'd also agree with uberfish's suggestion of giving them some notice of the island to the east - perhaps extend it one tile west, so they can notice the two tiles of coast to their east, and understand that there is a landmass there?

I think that is actually an ice lake. It did seem rather odd, I can change it to just a regular lake. And I will open one more path through the western mountains, plus the eastern island visibility.

Sheaim - punch a couple of holes in the mountain range to the north-west. Otherwise it's too isolated, which is boring.

Noted.

Lanun - jungle sucks, especially for a civ that doesn't start with Crafting. Remove some jungle around the starting position, and add a couple of crabs - one in the BFC of the settler (say, 2N of the wine), one on the western side of the island, perhaps?

OK, as noted above this start does seem to need some modification. Less jungle (but still some), a bit of seafood and moving some of the pearls to be a bit less clustered.

Malakim - as mentioned earlier, how about a radical solution: remove the Copper? This would make defending the empire a more difficult task, it's only a small edit, and it brings the strategic resources in line with other civs. Don't worry about adding hills (though add a desert hill or two, if you feel like it) - with settler visibility, it's their job to consider moving somewhere where they'll have production as well.

I actually already removed one copper which was in the Malakim BFC. This really was the strongest start initially. Removing the second one is probably a good idea as well, given all the other positives they have.

Thanks again for the suggestions and advice, everyone! This is an interesting process, trying to balance a map for MP without making too many edits and leaving the map mostly natural.

Off to work...hope to have round two of proposed starts up soon.

[Bobchillingworth]

Bear in mind that every time you enter the worldbuilder, a new goblin archer will be added to every fort- so unless you want super goblin forts ala PBEM I, be sure to delete the excess archers on your final edit