Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Gaspar]

Well... this is my first ever FFH PBEM game, and as stated before, I'm a total noob at the game, really no clue whatsoever what I'm doing here. Mostly I just want to not totally embarrass myself, have fun, make friends with everyone, pass out cookies, you know, that sort of thing. Hey, everyone, have a cookie right now:



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Okay that surely filled up enough space for mouseover/quick click protection. Let's get to the heart of matters.

(Yes, I know I'm completely ripping off PB. There are worse footsteps to follow in around here.)

[Gaspar]

So what do we have in FFH2PBEMVII? Well, we have a "noobs" game. I don't actually think that's what we have, though. I was sort of thumbing through the FFH2PBEMI thread, and basically, most of the players there thought of themselves as noobs, and I think a couple (Selrahc and PB obviously) played quite well. The bottom line, the majority of these players are either more experienced with FFH2 than was originally intended when the idea came around (RG, for example, says he wins regularly on Immortal) or are extremely good at Civ (Kyan is one of the 10 best BTS players on this site, in my opinion.) Now, before someone instructs on how different FFH2 is to BTS, obviously, there are some huge disparities. But the basics of good Civ micro absolutely are a huge boon in FFH2, which basically has the same tile management scheme, even if the tiles themselves are improved in different ways for different reasons. So while stupidity can get you killed pretty quickly in FFH2, the only real differences I suspect in this game from your normal FFH2PBEM are:

1. Probably a little less aggressive to start. As we all feel our way around FFH MP play, we're less likely to try the rushes that have categorized this game. That's born out I think, by the fact that the only real quality rush Civ selected was Hippus, and even then, the economic leader was chosen. Sheaim are also a semi-rush civ, but Bronze Working is an expensive tech early on, so its not like you're looking at a super fast rush, especially with a less experienced player.

2. Probably expansion will be a little slower, as we all adjust to the nightmare that is early game FFH2 barbs.

Other than that, in a lot of ways, we'll be BETTER prepared to deal with what FFH2 has to offer than say, the first two games, because we've had 6 PBEMs to lurk and learn. Classic example of this: Civ choices. Kyan congratulated us for not picking a "cookie cutter" Civ like the Malakim. Oddly enough, both Ilios and Thoth thought they were going a bit outside the box with their choice when it was made, but now we've had all these games to lurk and that flood plains start shows explosive early growth, which has made both Civs... stand out in their games. Can't say more, as my dedlurker is playing in one of them but that Ilios and Thoth have generated attention in their games is not a secret to any of the players in either game. So we actually *get* the metagame better than the the early FFH2 PBEM players, I think.

Unfortunately, where we'll probably let you all down is staying dedicated to a plan. I know I have that problem in my SP FFH games, and I suspect it will take a concerted effort from Mardoc to keep me on point here. Thanks, by the way, for joining Mardoc. I promise to entertain, if not excel. Here, have a cookie:

[Gaspar]

(Reserved to Discuss Opponents.)

Nicolae: Tebryn Arbandia of Sheaim
Lurkers: Selrahc

Kyan & Twinkletoes: Keelyn of the Balseraphs
Lurkers: Bobchillingworth, DaveV

Brian: Einion Logos of the Elohim
Lurkers: Sareln, Ichabod

Acalostas & Mackoti: Cassiel of the Grigori
Lurkers: Ilios

Rawkking Goodguy: Rhoanna of the Hippus
Lurkers: Square Leg, Thoth

[Gaspar]

So what about me, what about Raven?



err I mean, Arendel Phaedra?



Arendel is one of three leaders for the Ljosalfar, the others being Thessa and Amelanchier. Of course, there's only effectively two, since Amelanchier's traits are so lousy. As shown in the image above, Arendel's traits are Spiritual and Creative, so she essentially is Hatsheput for FFH2. Except that the traits aren't exactly the same. The civic switching aspect of Spiritual is somewhat nerfed in the mod, as you can only change Civics every 10 turns instead of every 5. That, combined with quick speed, means we won't be able to get the same juice out of Civic swapping that you would in a BTS game. Doesn't mean we won't take advantage of it, of course. One of the reasons this is powerful in FFH2 is the strength and uniqueness of religion in the game. Even the Elves, who are fairly pigeonholed into a specific religion (more on this later) can get a lot of mileage out of discovering the various religious techs, changing state religion to get the respective priests out, then moving along. Its quite useful, for example, to stop off and pick up some Ritualists or Cultists for their specific AoE spells, before settling into your final religion. The other nice thing about Spiritual is it makes those priests stronger, giving them both mobility, for added speed, and potency, so that they gain passive xp faster. Any spiritual leader is going to make Priests an important part of their army.

Creative, on the other hand, is much weaker in FFH than it is in BTS, because the half-priced Libraries and Theatres are traded for half-priced Carnivals and Monuments. Monuments are a complete waste, because with the native bonus to Culture production, there's no reason to build these. Carnivals have situational value, though Elves, when played as they're "supposed" to be played, have few happiness issues, so a Carnival is a less critical build. Still, not having to build monuments will mean both more units and faster builds of more important buildings, so its not without value. Monuments are expensive and pretty necessary builds if you're not creative, as there are no passive culture buildings in FFH (i.e Libraries in BTS.)

So that's Arendel. What about the Ljosalfar?



That tool tip does a decent job of explaining things, actually. I'll just move on down the line.

Starting techs: Exploration. The elves start with the ability to build roads, a pretty crappy starting tech actually.
Civilization trait: Dexterous. Effectively, this means all Archery units have an extra point of attack strength, so we'll definitely want to build these. The game encourages you to go down the Archery line instead of the Melee line as an elf, but there are drawbacks there as well.
Hero: Gilden Silveric.



Pros to Gilden: He comes early, so you're sure to build him. If you use an archery range before building him, he gets +2 strength, +1 from the range and another +1 from Dexterous. Even when he "obsoletes" he can make a fearsome stack defender.

Cons to Gilden: Pretty weak base strength for a hero. Not melee, so can't get a bonus from Bronze/Iron/Mithril, but not a mage, so can't get channelling promotions. Ultimately, he's a helpful, and you certainly can Archer rush someone with the Ljos, and Gilden's a great topper to that stack, but he's not going to win the decisive later game wars for you. Going to need religious heroes for that.

World Spell: March of the Trees. March of the Trees is either a situational early rush spell or an "Oh Shit" button defense spell, but its pretty mediocre in reality. Its main threat is as a deterrent. What it does is create a STR 10 Treant in every forest or Ancient Forest tile, which will die in 5 turns. When it dies, it plants a new forest on the tile if there isn't already an improvement there. So early on, if you have a close neighbor, you can smack someone with units they can't possibly counter at that point. Late on, you can defend against stacks if you don't mind completely ruining your economy. It hasn't been cast yet in either game featuring the Ljosalfar, and I doubt I'll be using it other than as a deterrent myself.

Unique Units: Flurry, Fyrdwell. Swordsman don't count, as they're only unique in terms of flavor. The Ljos UUs basically suck. Flurry's are X-bows with blitz. X-bows are nice little units, but they're very late game options, and require a very expensive tech. By the time you get them, the game is most probably over. Fyrdwell are the HA replacement, and have no bonuses as opposed to HA, except that they require deer instead of Horses. Yawn.

Blocked Units: Siege. Elves cannot build Siege units, and therefore have to rely on either Arcane or Disciple units for collateral. That's not such a big deal, really, since Siege units aren't especially cost effective in FFH2.

Palace: The Ljosalfar Palace provides Nature, Life and Air Mana. Nature Mana is situationally useful. Life Mana is great against the undead, and is a defense against Hell terrain if we see the Infernals come into play. Air Mana is situationally useful at the adept level, but Maelstrom is a decent collateral spell if you need one.

Blocked Buildings: Siege Workshop, Alchemy Lab. Obviously no need for a Siege workshop if you can't build Siege. The Alchemy Lab provides a bonus to science, so it will be missed, but it comes late enough that its not a huge deal.

Special Abilities: Can build improvements on Forest tiles. This is essentially what the elves are all about. The typical Ljosalfar strategy involves building lots of cottages in forests, improving them to Ancient Forests by adopting Guardian of Nature, and loving life with 3F1H5C tiles all around your empire. Essentially this means the Elvish player will always have great production, and later in the game, will also have strong growth potential.

Still, the elves are toxic to a player like myself who gets distracted easily, so part of my choosing them was to force myself to be a bit better disciplined.

I'll talk about my strategy later on.

[Mardoc]

So, as Gaspar alluded to, keeping focus may be a bit of a challenge; although we got our first choice of civ, it took quite some time to pin Gaspar down to a choice, and even then he sent his PM in, and immediately sent one to me afterward that he was feeling some buyer's remorse, shoulda chosen the Hippus .

A main focus on our choices was getting a civ with relevance through the whole game; we didn't want a rush civ, nor an entirely late-game civ which would be an obvious target. Like, say, the Clan, who might want to choke the Amurites to keep them from getting to Archmages, to pick a totally hypothetical example . Surprisingly, most of our opponents choices were in the same style; Elohim, Sheaim, and Hippus were all in our top 4, and Balseraphs were at least considered.

How do the Elves fit the bill? Well, we've got strong Archers, Gilden Silveric, and March of the Trees early on to at least keep us defended in the early game. We've also got the potential to run what I consider to be the best, or at least among the best economies in the game; size 30 cities, working 20 3/1/5 tiles and 10 specialists is quite reasonable to expect from a fully developed Elven economy. With that kind of research and production power, you can go pretty much whatever route you want.

The downside, of course, is the time it takes to set it up. Only Thessa has any sort of direct econ trait, and getting the economy really strong relies on planting and growing forests, and then planting and growing cottages into towns. This is why we didn't pick Svartalfar; we're likely to need the world spell deterrent and the archers early on to give us that time.

When deciding between Thessa and Arendel (we figured Amelanchier was a definite...variant...leader), it came down to the question of locking in a mage heavy gameplan, or keeping the flexibility associated with Spiritual. FFH civics are both powerful and situational, so I would rank Spiritual as one of the stronger traits in the game (I'll describe civics and religions later on). And, well, given Gaspar...flexibility should have been an obvious decision. But fear not, gentle citizen, for I come from a long line of cat herders! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_MaJDK3VNE

Ok, so I'm exaggerating. Seriously, the nice thing about the Elves is that once you come up with a plan, they have the tools needed to make it happen. If we want to Dominate, then we use our tech and production advantage to make an unstoppable army. If we want culture, we use it to...sing pretty songs about the trees and win that way.

To describe the mechanics, I think I'll quote myself

Ah, the elves. Extremely Tolkeinesque, these folk love their forests, and prosper exceedingly in them. All as the result of a simple change in mechanics with widespread results - the elves can build improvements in forests without destroying the forest. Elves also get an extra move in forests; keeping them quick even without roads (I expect the elves to be the ones least conducive to exploiting Raiders. They get Nature, Air, and Life mana from their palace. The elves have a couple minor unique units (replacing the late-game crossbowman with a Flurry, and of course Gilden Silveric as one of the earliest heroes, at Archery), and make up for them by losing their access to catapults. Finally, their archery units get an extra Str, turning them from bad attackers to mediocre attackers . On the other hand...they don't need unique units, either. Why?



Well, combining their forest benefits with Fellowship of Leaves, of course! When a non-elven civ wants to use Fellowship, they can end up with Ancient Forests at 3/1/0; not really any better than a plains farm. If they want commerce, they need to chop the trees; if they want food, running Agrarianism with farms is a better bet. Elves, on the other hand, can put mines on their forests for 3/2/0, or towns for 3/2/5, or even farm the trees for insane amounts of food (and always that 1 hammer). Add in Guardian of Nature to essentially remove the health and happy caps, and Elven cities can end up in the size 25-30 range, working every tile for both food and hammers, with copious specialists to bend the empire in the direction they please. Once they have massive forests in their land, the March of the Trees spell, giving them a short lived Str 10 Treent for every forest can definitely give a headache to any attacker, or even a defender who's close enough.

On the other hand, this takes a long while to set up - they need to tech Fellowship, Guardian, and Priesthood or start in a forest before they can even start this insane progression; Elven workers get a penalty to workrate which means they start off slowly, and once they do have the ingredients, it still takes quite a while for the Priests of Leaves to Bloom every tile, the workers to follow behind cottaging or mining them, and the trees and cottages to grow up. Compare to my Lanun, who get 3/0/3 coasts at their first tech, and the ability to create coves immediately as well. Finally, as much as the Elves benefit from their forests, they can be a liability too - any Adept with access to a Fire node or of course the Sheaim can burn down their forests, taking away those benefits they spent so long developing.

Still, if the Elves are given time, I expect them to be one of the two civs who can compete with me in tech (the other being the Malakim). The ability to literally cottage every tile without giving up the ability to produce, combined with the ability to run half a dozen Sages per city, can lead to frankly ridiculous research rate, once everything's set up.

I was slightly wrong here - if you're careful, you can lumbermill a forest before it goes Ancient and get a 3/2/0 tile. But still nothing as good as the elves can manage. (I also underestimated the Malakim, or at least Thoth in control of the Malakim, but that's a whole different story).

What do we have to take into account? Well, first, pre-FoL, we're the same as any other civ, needing rivers and likely Aristofarms for commerce. We've got slow workers, so we'll need even more of them than usual. We're addicted to our trees, later on - anyone with Blaze, or the Sheaim, can burn them down and make us suffer, if we don't take preventative measures. Similarly, Guardian of Nature is such a powerful civic that once we start relying on it, we'll essentially be locked into the Fellowship as our religion and Guardian as our labor civic, unless we want to self-inflict a Blight on our lands. We can afford to swap around religions before that point, but there is a point of no return. The Fellowship is not the most powerful war religion (just one of the earliest), by a long shot, so our war strength will have to come from elsewhere. We can figure that out when we get there. For the time being, we need to execute a standard Aristofarms opening, most likely, and tech to the Fellowship.

[Mardoc]

Pros to Gilden: He comes early, so you're sure to build him. If you use an archery range before building him, he gets +2 strength, +1 from the range and another +1 from Dexterous. Even when he "obsoletes" he can make a fearsome stack defender.

And, I think we've found our first piece of obsolete info in the FFHpedia. I'm 90% sure that there is no bonus from an archery range, just the bonus from Dextrous. It wouldn't hurt to verify this.

Of course, Str 6 as early in the tree as Archery is still quite strong, and as a Hero we can better than double that by the time we take promotions into account.

but he's not going to win the decisive later game wars for you. Going to need religious heroes for that.

Frankly, I think, at least in an MP environment, you can't really count on any hero to win a war, except maybe as an archmage replacement (like PB's Hemah). It's too easy to wear one down and kill it if you're relying on heroes to win your war, as opposed to just supporting it.

[Gaspar]

And, I think we've found our first piece of obsolete info in the FFHpedia. I'm 90% sure that there is no bonus from an archery range, just the bonus from Dextrous. It wouldn't hurt to verify this.

Of course, Str 6 as early in the tree as Archery is still quite strong, and as a Hero we can better than double that by the time we take promotions into account.

I think you're right actually. I'll double check in a test game, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate, now that you mention it. But the point remains, Gilden could help us Snipe an early city or two, but that's about the end of his usefulness. More likely, he'll signal an early end to any barb problems we might have.

Frankly, I think, at least in an MP environment, you can't really count on any hero to win a war, except maybe as an archmage replacement (like PB's Hemah). It's too easy to wear one down and kill it if you're relying on heroes to win your war, as opposed to just supporting it.

I really have to read PB's thread from the beginning one of these days. Anyway, yeah I was referring to Hemah, Chalid, Gibbon, etc - the heroes who can replace a need for alternate Collateral, which is usually the key to winning a war. Of course, this is another weakness of the elves. The FoL heroes kind of suck. Yvain is strong, and does get Channeling 3 but comes very late. Kithra kind of sucks. In my head, I've been trying to figure out ways to play the elves well without running GoN, but I haven't come up with any winners yet. My best plan (and the reason I haven't posted a plan yet) is to go AV for a little bit, get some Ritualists up, then switch to FoL full time. Otherwise, its waiting until late and getting lots of Fireballing and Maelstroming mages, in which situation, Thessa would have been perhaps a better choice.

[Gaspar]

By the by... I've been rolling a few starts with ErebusContinent for the Ljosalfar, and it seems like they keep putting me on the coast. Is there a lore appropriate reason for that? If so, that sucks, you can't grow forest on a coastal tile, so you inevitably have to move in, but that ends up putting you too close to a neighbor. Is it too late to change my mind on Civ?

[Ravus Sol]

Nice start to the thread Gasper! Has a very good feel, like the start of some epic saga... Now you just have to survive to the end of the game!

Going as the elves to train yourself in management diligence seem appropriate, they really do get the most out of focusing on their strengths. Only time you need adaptability is when you find yourself bordering someone like the Orcs.

Maybe the map script thinks that the Elves are THAT AWESOME that they need a sea start to be nerfed? I think lore wise there isn't a reason but they may want those pretty swan boats, so you could also blame Mardoc :neenernee

You come up with a Name Theme yet?

[Gaspar]

Nice start to the thread Gasper! Has a very good feel, like the start of some epic saga... Now you just have to survive to the end of the game!

Going as the elves to train yourself in management diligence seem appropriate, they really do get the most out of focusing on their strengths. Only time you need adaptability is when you find yourself bordering someone like the Orcs.

Maybe the map script thinks that the Elves are THAT AWESOME that they need a sea start to be nerfed? I think lore wise there isn't a reason but they may want those pretty swan boats, so you could also blame Mardoc :neenernee

You come up with a Name Theme yet?

Appreciate the comments. We have a few ideas percolating along the ways of naming, but I'll wait a bit before throwing those out to the crowd. Have to keep them wanting, you know.

I don't think the Elves are *that awesome*. While there's no doubt they can get unrivaled teching and production in the very late game, there's no Giant Death Robot in FFH2 at the end of the tree. Or there is, but only if you're the Illians. But yeah, they should force me to focus a bit. Or that and Mardoc, I hope. I thought it strange, but I just rolled a dozen or so starts, and all of them resulted in coastal or near coastal starts. I'm sure its just a random coincidence, but if I can vote, allow me to place a strong one on PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE ME AN INLAND START, RAVUS. WE AIN'T NO SWIMMIN ELVES!!!