FFH PBEM8 Map thread

[Mardoc]

To start things off, here's what the players requested:

Game speed: Quick
Leaders: Restricted, Financial and Adaptive is banned
Start Era: Ancient
Orthus: Mapmakers choice
Acheron: No
Human take-over for Basium and/or Hyborem: Yes
Difficulty level: Immortal
Barb activity level: Normal
Wildlands: Yes
Living World: No
Lairs/Huts/Dungeons: No
All Unique Features: Mapmakers choice. Big 3 out of starting area. Aifon Isle, Bradeline's Well, Broken Sepulcher and Pyre of the Seraphic are banned.
Map type: No preference as long as following is true : No flavor and one giant continent ( 2 votes )

[Mardoc]

In addition, some pieces that I believe are important:

• Decent, equalish capital sites for everyone
  
• Access to copper
  
• Access to Iron
  
• Access to an early-game commerce special (Wines, Calendar, Mining)
  
• Access to early-game food (grain, fish, sugar, or animals)
  
• Access to Mana
  
• No one drowning in forest or excessive ocean
  
• Relatively even amounts and qualities of land in 'natural' borders
  
• Everyone with access to the ocean
  
• OO viable. Hell terrain hurting.
  

I'm working on the above; I expect to have a map up later today for you all to tear apart. In the meantime, are there any comments on the philosophy of FFH map balance?

[DaveV]

I don't know what script you're using, but I really like Tectonics with 30% water (which really turns out to be something like 15-60% water). Lots of land, but a fair amount of coast and medium-to-large bodies of water.

For balance, I like to see a decent amount of ice and desert (to give some incentive for water and sun nodes). I like no huts and no lairs; that helps with balance. Note that when Bob and I played a duel game with wildlands and normal barbs, no barbs at all appeared until after we killed a few animals. Maybe you should pre-place a few barb warriors, lizards, or goblins, far enough away from the starting points that they won't do an insta-kill?

At Immortal difficulty, it's really easy to crash the economy. The most important thing for balance is to give each player equal access to commerce (rivers make a big difference).

I'd recommend keeping the unique features well away from the players (big 3 in 3rd ring or further). Each has some pretty decent advantage, and it should require a concentrated effort to claim them.

I think the best maps are mostly natural - the games that cause the most complaints are the ones where the mapmaker tries to get too creative.

[Mardoc]

I don't know what script you're using, but I really like Tectonics with 30% water (which really turns out to be something like 15-60% water). Lots of land, but a fair amount of coast and medium-to-large bodies of water.

I had been using Pangaea, but I gave Tectonics a whirl and I really like it. It gives a nice variety, but the average terrain is plains, so Aristograrianism won't be quite so obvious a choice for everyone.

I did end up rerolling until I had a map with more than the average share of water, because of a later decision

For balance, I like to see a decent amount of ice and desert (to give some incentive for water and sun nodes). I like no huts and no lairs; that helps with balance. Note that when Bob and I played a duel game with wildlands and normal barbs, no barbs at all appeared until after we killed a few animals. Maybe you should pre-place a few barb warriors, lizards, or goblins, far enough away from the starting points that they won't do an insta-kill?

At Immortal difficulty, it's really easy to crash the economy. The most important thing for balance is to give each player equal access to commerce (rivers make a big difference).

I'd recommend keeping the unique features well away from the players (big 3 in 3rd ring or further). Each has some pretty decent advantage, and it should require a concentrated effort to claim them.

I think the best maps are mostly natural - the games that cause the most complaints are the ones where the mapmaker tries to get too creative.

Mostly haven't altered the map once I found one that seemed interesting. I added rivers to all the starts, subtracted out all the unique lairs (I think), and moved the Big Three to an island of lost toys.

First, it was requested that the Big 3 be away from players. Although it's been mentioned, I don't think anyone's gone so far as to actually make an Island of Lost Toys. So I went ahead an made an island, unreachable and hopefully unseeable before Optics, covered in jungle, with the Big 3, some Mana nodes, and a little touch that I find hilarious - All the Bananas in the world, and Gurid to guard them! (along with the Guardian of Pristinus Pass). I honestly don't expect this island to matter much to the game, since it can't be claimed until enough after Optics for someone to find it and build a substantial invasion force, but if someone can pull it off, they'll be rewarded nicely.



What do you think? Am I right that this is fun? Am I right that it's not unbalancing?

Next up, first drafts on all the various starts. I expect a lot of changes yet, so be harsh. I'd much much rather hear it now than in a couple months from the players!

The Bannor:

The Clan:

The Hippus:

The Amurites:

The Ljosalfar:

The Calabim:

At the moment I'm thinking that the Clan start may be a tad too good, and the Hippus too weak.

And, the save, in case you want to look over the map in more detail:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16549110/FFHPBEM...wordWBSave

[Selrahc]

I honestly don't expect this island to matter much to the game, since it can't be claimed until enough after Optics for someone to find it and build a substantial invasion force, but if someone can pull it off, they'll be rewarded nicely.

What do you think? Am I right that this is fun? Am I right that it's not unbalancing?

Um.

Firstly, I always liked the idea of a quest island.

I think this implementation has a few problems though.

1. The fact that it is so hard to find actually reduces the level of balance. If one player luckily stumbles on it, while another player unluckily sails past... No skill involved. No decisions taken. One player just stumbles on something that could be very valuable.

With that in mind, I would say any potential Lost Toy site should be unveiled to the players, or in a fairly obvious location. So that players get to make an informed decision to go for it or not.

2. The location needs to be fairly centralized.
In this map, it's looking like some civs are a *lot* closer. They'll have an easier time colonizing and defending the island.

The visibility is easily fixed, but I can't really think of a good way to place this island on this map.

[Mardoc]

The visibility is easily fixed, but I can't really think of a good way to place this island on this map.

That's true; most civs have access to the ocean, but there's a large difference between access and being close enough to actually claim and defend it.

The only significant way I can think of to fix that would be to switch map scripts, to Pangaea or Inland Sea or some such, but I like the Tectonic script more than I like the Quest Island.

I suppose the other option is to make the quest island less significant and leave it in just as a fun thing. Take the Big Three, separate them and stick them in between the civs on the mainland, and leave the island as the Home of the Banana. Probably take out the mana nodes, too.

[DaveV]

A few quick comments:

Agree with Selrahc that every civ should have an equal shot at Gurid Island. Putting Gurid there is clever.

I think I saw the Broken Sepulcher in the Bannor screenshot: didn't the players request that none of the explorable dungeons be included?

The starts look pretty imbalanced in terms of food: the Ljos just have dry wheat and plains cows in a sea of plains, while other civs have lots of grassland and sheep. The Calabim have a decent commerce special (reagents). Teching is really slow at Immortal, so any extra commerce is a big deal.

[Mardoc]

Agree with Selrahc that every civ should have an equal shot at Gurid Island. Putting Gurid there is clever.

The question is what I can do to ensure that? I'm thinking he's probably right that the shape of the map will keep some away, at least the Calabim and Amurites. I could carve out canals, but that still doesn't help against sheer distance.

I'm glad you like the Gurid approach - I wanted something hard to kill, but not Acheron .

I think I saw the Broken Sepulcher in the Bannor screenshot: didn't the players request that none of the explorable dungeons be included?

I left the mana node in place (same with the Pyre) but deleted the lair itself.

The starts look pretty imbalanced in terms of food: the Ljos just have dry wheat and plains cows in a sea of plains, while other civs have lots of grassland and sheep. The Calabim have a decent commerce special (reagents). Teching is really slow at Immortal, so any extra commerce is a big deal.

This ought to be relatively easy to fix - is it just the likely capital site that you object to, or the whole area? I can sprinkle in some green and irrigate the Ljo wheat, maybe give everyone a commerce special in their BFC if it's the former, but if it's the latter I have more work to do.

[uberfish]

Inland Sea seems the obvious choice if you want everyone to have equal shot at an island.

The main thing I'd say about start balancing is that in the early game commerce specials - either at the capital or expansion sites - are the most important thing, and can snowball quite quickly (because you can afford more expansion faster. Especially on immortal)

Plains incense is #1 due to its position on the tech tree, followed by dye/gold.

[Mardoc]

Hmm, so I've made sure everyone has a wine or silk in the BFC, with Gold, Gems, or Incense reasonably close for an expansion city, in addition to what they had before. I also sprinkled in some cows into neutral territory, along with reagents.

I also changed the Ljo cow to pigs, and sprinkled in some grasslands around their general area.