EitB Paring Questions

[Qgqqqqq]

Based on the thread that started this mod, but adapted to the current mod.

Basically, I'm starting this because one of the things I hear a lot is that EitB has changed too much, and I want to hear what people think has gone too far, because a lot of the impetus in the wishlist thread is generally for more changes, rather than reviewing old ones.


Firstly, is there anything EitB has inherited from the base mod that you think needs cutting/slimming down, and why?

Secondly, what change from EitB do you think is the most unnecessary/bloated/going too far, and why?


Feel free to elaborate beyond just one, of course.

[HidingKneel]

Secondly, what change from EitB do you think is the most unnecessary/bloated/going too far, and why?

The changes to Esus.

Two of the problems that EitB originally aimed to solve:

Council of Esus was an underpowered religion
The Nox Noctis is an overpowered wonder

These seem to me to have a simple mutual solution: leave the Nox Noctis powerful but have it function only when having Esus as state religion.

I don't really like the "money for spells" mechanic, and I think the new Extort ability of the Nightwatch is overpowered. I'd say remove these, remove some but not all of the counters to Noctis invisibility, and make invisibility require the state religion.

[Qgqqqqq]

Any thoughts from others on this?


My perspective:
This change makes Nox Noctis the only (truly significant) benefit of the religion in competitive multiplayer. This means it suffers from all the traditional problems of this nature - only open to one person, ties all the benefits to one, static location (which the player has no control over), requires not-always-possible investments and can be screwed over by the RNG (Great Person) and so on. It also narrows the focus of the religion, making it one that doesn't really reward investment, but rather one that is tacked onto another pursuit. Compare to, say The Order, which has a very grab-it-all approach (the crusader and exponential spread) but has any number of other goodies on top, which you can choose to purse or not. I feel Religions should be a much more substantial part of the game than they are in Esus' case. Moreover, forcing Noctis into one state religion almost feels like rewarding a lack of investment in this part of the tree.

That being said, I don't like the current implementation either. A lot of people feel Extort is too powerful (though at this stage I'm more leaving it in because I want to see it in practice so as to tell how theoretical this overpowerment is), money-for-spells feels gimmicky, odd, and difficult to actual use, and it still doesn't feel like it has "enough".

So I am open to a redesign. But I don't feel like your suggestion would move Esus in the way I want it to.

[Tasunke]

Esus Patriarch unit (6 str, arcane, 1 move), at Guilds. It can cast a spell that makes your units invisible within your borders. (works like Hope/Inspiration/UnyieldingOrder ... but for the Nox Noctis effect). Said effect is removed from the holy city Wonder.

Obviously Patriarch (or Speaker of Esus, etc) would be national limit of 1, require Esus state religion, and iabandon if u switch out of the religion. His spell would also require Esus religion, just for redundancy sake.

[Bobchillingworth]

I'm stumped about Esus, TBH. Having Nightwatch instead of priests just makes it so unappealing, even with all the goodies EitB hands it. Shadows and Shadow Riders are amazing units, but they're so late they never get built in MP. The Shrine and Gibbon are both good, but as you pointed out are one-offs. Extort obviously isn't enough to regularly entice people to spend the beakers needed to unlock Nightwatch... it's possible that's simply a mistake on our part, and most of us are overlooking a very strong strategy. I mean, it should be very powerful for the Khazad or Mahala or Elves or anyone else who needs to blow a lot of cash on units and/or has large cities. Maybe all that needs to happen is for people to actually try running games around it.


Only other thing I can think of is making Nightwatch into better units. Right now they're kind of just worse Longbows IIRC, and getting people to build any archery units not called "Firebow" or "Javelin Thrower" is seemingly an exercise in futility.

[Kragroth]

None of the suggested changes or nerfs makes me want to adopt Essus in a serious game.

[Tasunke]

well, having invisible defend only scouts (2 str, 2 move, commando, invisible, defend only) at around 45 hammers per unit could be an interesting Esus-only spy mechanic. That plus the Patriarch would make for an interesting dynamic of intelligence gathering superiority. If no one is rather interested in adopting Esus for the purpose, I could scratch together a pro-Esus patch and host a PBEM where I may well pursue such a strategy, if others are not wont to pursue it.

[Mardoc]

I'm stumped about Esus, TBH.

Me too. Maybe if Esus had some collateral? Or collateral resistance? Invisibility is nice, but not nice enough.

getting people to build any archery units not called "Firebow" or "Javelin Thrower" is seemingly an exercise in futility.

The trouble is in their design, honestly. Pure defense doesn't pay; you at least need to be able to counterattack. On top, defensive strikes are anemic, so they're not even worth salting into a stack most of the time. And only the archer itself appears before collateral, after which defense *really* doesn't pay.

Buff the defensive strikes, or give them some something useful on offense (spell called archery, 10% or 15% damage limit, 1 tile range?), and we might use archers. But with their current design, investing in archers can mean that you lose more slowly, but not win. Not when they can't even hold your own territory.

[Bobchillingworth]

@ Tasunke- your unit ideas are interesting, but I think adding brand-new units is a bit outside the scope of the modmod. "Extort" is honestly already pushing the line as it is.


Regarding making Esus more appealing, how about one or more of these options:


* Make Shadowriders national units produced at Stirrups. Nerf their current strength to make them essentially elite HA (maybe with 2 extra strength or something; lots of ways to go about this). Alternatively, make them just somewhat better HA and regular units. This has the side advantage of paralleling the Empyrean nicely, which gets a better version of the Chariot.

* Buff Nightwatch. Consider making them deal collateral damage and give them a good withdraw rate so that they can compete with Catapults. Like a worse, mass-produced version of Shadows.

* Make Shadows weaker and a replacement for Assassins, either as fairly strong national units or just regular assassins that also do collateral (which I guess makes all Shadows into Dwarven Shadows, but whatever, not like anyone builds either unit to begin with).

[The Black Sword]

I agree with HK that Extort is probably overpowered. It gives you a very good conversion rate of food (we have loads) to gold (not so much). That's exactly why Aristo has such a good reputation. Still, nobody has really super-exploited it yet to my knowledge so you could leave it alone until someone does so. I wouldn't consider buffing Esus further without weakening Extort though.

Making the Nightwatch available without Bowyers might be an idea if you are looking to improve them.