[Spoilers] Dreylin & Grimace TOW the line

[Dreylin]

So while I'm trying to remember my thoughts from PBEM63 (other than ROFLstomp), I'd be interested to hear your thoughts / impressions of the TOW mod...

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[Dreylin]

Thoughts in no particular order:

* TOW is generally a lighter hand than RTR in terms of changes; it also seems to be focused towards a generally lower average power level than RTR - particularly in terms of civ/UU tweaks.

* With the obvious exceptions of AGR & PRO, many of the Traits took the same or very similar changes between the two mods.
> EXP is a big difference, with the Worker bonus moved off in order to keep the Granary. I love me some RTR EXP, but my feeling is that TOW EXP is worse than RTR PRO.
> IMP was a small difference, but one that I really appreciated in PBEM63. RTR's +60% on Settlers can be awkward to maximise and can end up as +50% early on anyway; the economic boosters of Markets and Banks are very nice. I could see myself selecting IMP again.
> AGR and PRO are obviously the big changes removing the cheap promos and replacing with ... I guess adjustments of FIN for the other tile yields. I find AGR difficult to quantify, but it has been clearly demonstrated as very strong in PBEM63 coupled with CHA; with a lower Happy Cap, I guess that means fewer Food tiles needed to enable more Hammer tiles.
> PRO I discarded last time (despite being a big fan of the cheap Workers) because I couldn't see the production bonus having enough impact. The applicable tiles are certainly limited in the early game, but it does lend itself to a Workshop economy mid/late game.

* I'd kind-of like to try out one (or both) of the new traits in this game; IMP is in the mix as well. IND and PHI are traits I haven't piloted recently and would like to try out. However IND's power changes with how many are in the game, so I think is very subject to pick order, and I'm not sure I'd have a focused enough plan to take advantage of PHI.

So basically a big broad shrug of what I'm going to select.

Civ-wise I'm not married to anything either, so I think a lot will come down to choosing techs for the start. TOW EXP-Inca doesn't have the same attraction as RTR PRO-Inca, but I'd still like to give Chucks a go at some point (after their recent romps) and have always had a soft spot for Ottomans' Janns & Hamms combo.

So the plan is:

1) see the start
2) see the snakpick order
3) procrastinate
4) turn rolls around
5) panic
6) listen to voices
7) pick randomly(ish)

[AutomatedTeller]

Here is the starting BFC sandbox for you to look at and start planning, if you choose to do so. This accurately represents what the starting BFC will look like when you load into the game.
The file has any strategic resources stripped out (since you would not know those on turn 0). All non-BFC tiles are water, even ones you can see at the start.

Obviously, the leader/civ is randomly assigned


Link to the starting sandbox: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6890...wordWBSave

[Dreylin]

Here it is:


I added the black boxes to the corners because the water there isn't really there ... well it might be but it probably isn't, but either way it was distracting me!

2 Plains Hills and the Jumbo has me strongly leaning towards Productive. That pushes me towards a Workshop economy which is somewhat anti-synergistic with FIN. ORG isn't possible, so I'm probably looking at IMP, AGR and an outside thought of IND if no-one takes one before it gets to me.

Taking a PROD also means that I need a Fishing Civ, since I think Workboat first makes most sense here with a first-ring Fish:


As you see, non-Prod would complete the tech at the same time as the WB, however Prod speeds the WB up by a turn and so the benefit is going to waste. Since WB->Worker delays the timing need for the first improvement tech, it would be nice to take one of the expensive first-row techs as the second. Fishing-Wheel gives me Japan; Fishing-Mysticism = Spain.

Japan's UB has good synergy with PROD amping up the Production, while Mysticism with Spain would tempt me towards Meditation first. I'd want to Sim it out, but Med-Agri-Hunting-Mining seems like it should come in on the right timeline for the Worker to Farm Wheat, Camp Ivory, then move onto the bare Plains Hill and Mine. The Wine wants me up the centre of the tree early anyway, and maybe if I went this way IND would take me on through the Oracle.... Hum, I could easily get sucked in there, but also cheap Workshops....

OK, time to sleep on it; we'll see what picks the morning brings.

[Grimace]

Sorry I missed the very start...work is keeping me very busy. Thankfully our deadline is the end of the month, so by the end of this next week I'll be much better off.

I agree with your analysis. With those first ring fish it would be an absolute travesty not to grab them first for the extra commerce, which will help enormously with getting the next few techs. Only bad thing about going with a PRO leader is that you have very few tiles visible that will give the extra hammer benefit. Basically just the elephants (when you can camp them, which won't happen until AH) and the plains hill, at least until much later when the workshops become useful, but except for getting the fish online quicker, it's probably not going to be a big benefit unless the next few cities are lucky. If you're set on PRO, though, IND would have been a good combo. Unfortunately Haram already grabbed that. My second choice would probably be IMP. And you may want to consider America. Yeah, the starting techs aren't going to be worth the most beakers, but you get two good techs for this start right away and the UB would be awesome with an IMP leader...a 75h building that gives you a free merchant? Yeah, baby! Not mention its other benefits. Only bad thing is a UU you'll probably never use.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll see what other picks are made tomorrow morning my time.

[Dreylin]

Only bad thing about going with a PRO leader is that you have very few tiles visible that will give the extra hammer benefit. Basically just the elephants (when you can camp them, which won't happen until AH) and the plains hill, at least until much later when the workshops become useful, but except for getting the fish online quicker, it's probably not going to be a big benefit unless the next few cities are lucky.

Actually TOW didn't move the Camp like RtR did, so all the Jumbos need is Hunting to get them going; but I agree that actual production bonus of PROD is a mid/late-game effect - with the Worker/WB acceleration to help the early game - so a trait that trends early game like IMP would be a good balancing combo. So I think Charlie is the choice unless Fennbandit take it before.

If you're set on PRO, though, IND would have been a good combo. Unfortunately Haram already grabbed that. My second choice would probably be IMP. And you may want to consider America. Yeah, the starting techs aren't going to be worth the most beakers, but you get two good techs for this start right away and the UB would be awesome with an IMP leader...a 75h building that gives you a free merchant? Yeah, baby! Not mention its other benefits. Only bad thing is a UU you'll probably never use.

Hmmm, I'll add that to the list, but also note that going WB first gives 14turns before the Worker pops, which can eat through a lot of research. Here's something I was messing about with:

WB - working Ivory (5t)
Grow to size 2 working Fish (4t)
Worker - working Fish & Jumbo (6t) (this is a 1t delay to popping the Worker verses going straight there after WB)
Worker Farms, then moves to PFH

It needs a couple of turns on the Wine, but in that time you can research Agri-Mining-BW and be ready to start chop/mining. Start a second Worker at size3 and research Hunting, then Settler. Second tech after Fishing is unimportant on this track.

Alternative is to go Hunting-Agri-Mining-BW and send the Worker to the Ivory after the Wheat - that move costs one Worker turn unless the second tech is The Wheel for an intermediate road. The second Worker then goes to Copper or to road towards the second city location. Advantage of Hunting first is that it unlocks the Scout's second movement point and speeds exploration.

Of course if the second tech is unneeded on the first research route, then it opens up other Fishing-X civs for consideration....

OK, Kids are home, so more thoughts later.

[Grimace]

Actually TOW didn't move the Camp like RtR did, so all the Jumbos need is Hunting to get them going; but I agree that actual production bonus of PROD is a mid/late-game effect - with the Worker/WB acceleration to help the early game - so a trait that trends early game like IMP would be a good balancing combo. So I think Charlie is the choice unless Fennbandit take it before.

Yes, that's right. Damn all different mods anyway. I think Charlie is a good choice for this start. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out in the end.

Looks like PRO is fairly popular this game...including us there are already 3 leaders with it. No AGR represented, though, which is a bit of a shame. I'm curious to see how the food bonus change works out. Well, TBS or Jowy could still go that route.

Hmmm, I'll add that to the list, but also note that going WB first gives 14turns before the Worker pops, which can eat through a lot of research.

Especially with the extra commerce from working the fish tile. Even with worker first you'd still be working the phants, so your research isn't harmed by going WB first. Without simming I can't say what the beaker difference is, but I imagine it'll get you 10 or more extra beakers over going worker first. Which definitely makes the second tech after fishing somewhat moot. TBH, stick with Fishing as a tech requirement and then just go based on the UU/UB that you like the best.

Here are the civs I think would work best, in order from best to worst: Rome, Netherlands, Carthage, America, England, Viking, Portugal. For Rome. even with the Praet being nerfed, it's still a damn fine unit. And though the Forum isn't amazing, it does help GPP production and it gets the discount from IMP. I actually consider Netherlands/Carthage/America to be about equal. It largely depends on how many coastal cities there will be which will end up being better. Honestly, not a big fan of Japan or Spain for this leader/start. But I'm just here to give my (sometimes wrong) advice, so trust your instincts more than mine.

...It needs a couple of turns on the Wine, but in that time you can research Agri-Mining-BW and be ready to start chop/mining. Start a second Worker at size3 and research Hunting, then Settler. Second tech after Fishing is unimportant on this track.

You think 2nd worker before settler? Even with chops, that seems like it would delay the 2nd city by several turns.

Alternative is to go Hunting-Agri-Mining-BW and send the Worker to the Ivory after the Wheat - that move costs one Worker turn unless the second tech is The Wheel for an intermediate road. The second Worker then goes to Copper or to road towards the second city location. Advantage of Hunting first is that it unlocks the Scout's second movement point and speeds exploration.

I think early Hunting is a good idea, especially since we will want to camp the phants ASAP for the extra 2h. Once the capital hits size 3 it can pretty much always work them. So I tend to favor this worker plan. I think in the long run having the extra 2h will more than compensate for lack of an early chop.

[Dreylin]

Quick thoughts from my phone:

No AGR at all - kind of makes me regret not taking Toku.

The argument for Japan: The Wheel is one of the most expensive starting techs, and as demonstrated, WB first lets me get all the Worker techs ahead of their need. Shale Plant seems good (if late) and the Samurai should have greater value in a world without easy promos (AGG/PRO). Also, Wheel will be needed for connecting the Ivory since it's off-river.

Spain would have been great with IND, but I agree is less enticing without. (Although in a world of beelining Communism, skipping Economics and keeping the Castle relevant could have value.

I'm going to revisit the other options tonight before choosing, but Rome could be interesting (not RtR super-swords, though), and Vikings & Carthage also appeal.

Argument for second Worker before Settler is that delaying the first Worker means we're behind on land improvements and we'd likely end up working unimproved tiles. (Also gives time to research AH if needed for second city food). Both Settlers & Workers are speeded, so it shouldn't delay too much. (Worker is 4t build at size 3).

[Grimace]

No AGR at all - kind of makes me regret not taking Toku.

I almost suggested Toku, but I think Charlie will be a better choice here.

The argument for Japan: The Wheel is one of the most expensive starting techs, and as demonstrated, WB first lets me get all the Worker techs ahead of their need. Shale Plant seems good (if late) and the Samurai should have greater value in a world without easy promos (AGG/PRO). Also, Wheel will be needed for connecting the Ivory since it's off-river.

That's a good argument. Games rarely seem to go on long enough for the shale plant to matter, though the Samurai are pretty good. I prefer to avoid civs in a PB game that have a UU/UB that's industrial or later because your odds of ever getting there are low, and the only thing worse than having a sucky UU/UB is not ever getting to it. I was fortunate in PB27 that the RtR Japan has a UB that shows up much earlier.

Argument for second Worker before Settler is that delaying the first Worker means we're behind on land improvements and we'd likely end up working unimproved tiles. (Also gives time to research AH if needed for second city food). Both Settlers & Workers are speeded, so it shouldn't delay too much. (Worker is 4t build at size 3).

Ok, that makes sense. And a 4t delay is not too bad, especially since we should be able to make it up with IMP settlers later.

[Dreylin]

Ugh, that's irritating! And I'm in meetings for most of the morning too.