Japper and Alhambram go bongo bongo in the Kongo [Spoilers within]

[Japper007]

Civ's to rank:

France, Egypt, Aztec, Brazil, Greece (Pericles), India (Gandhi), Kongo, Norway, Spain, America

My ranking (with 1 highest rank, 4 lowest):

1. Kongo: 

Yes it's my old favorite and normally not a very strong option, but with Rome, Skythia and Sumeria eliminated, the Ngao Mbeba may be the strongest Early UU left in the pack: A swordsman that doesn't require Iron, is faster through forests and rainforests and takes arrows like they aint no thang.

The Mbanza is strong as I have already outlined in my pbem7 thread, it is effectively an improvement that turns weak 2/1 flatland forest/rainforest tiles into 4f/4gold tiles that you don't need to work (this is also why I count it as a +4 food improvement, since you don't need to pay the normal 2 food for a pop working) that also gives you 4 housing and can be spammed. People use this thing wrong constantly by only building them when they lack housing, once you get Guilds you should immediately start the process of turning every flatland bush tile into Mbanza's 

The boost to GWAM points from Theatre Squares is much stronger without Russia sniping away all the early Great Writers.

2. Greece (Pericles):

With the change to Agoge Hoplites are now a stronger option than ever.  I'm also interested in showing the potential of the Acropolis, which has been sadly lacking in the previous Greece games. 

3. India: 

Additional War Weariness is a deterrent for aggression while the Elephants are a great way to get into some fighting of your own. The Step Well and religious bonuses are strong economically.

4: Aztec: 

Eagles are very nice since you can farm workers from city states for a long time. The extra happiness and the happiness combat bonuses also scale really well into the late game.

[Alhambram]

Personally I wouldn't take Kongo, they are interesting civ but I am not entirely convinced that they are that good as you say. Early UU is weaker and more expensive than normal swordsman, although bonuses are nice.
Mbanza is indeed good, however in order to use it, you need forests and rainforests which mean you need to weigh whether you should chop it or not or turn it in lumbermill or not. Rainforest is easier to make decision since they gives less production yield and is primary placement for Mbanza. But Rainforest don't appear anywhere, only at center of map and we might start close tundra which mean that rainforests might be far away.
Boost for GWAM is indeed nice, but Greece got half cost for Acropolises and can catch up with Kongo, Great Merchant however shall be entirely uncontested.

However I want to say that your decision to take Kongo in PBEM7 is very correct one, due its bonus to adopt founder beliefs of other religion. This way for example Kongo would also enjoy bonus of DotF, Crusade or Church Property if teammate found religion and takes this beliefs. The pairing with Khmer however is in my opinion not very good, idea behind using relics is nice thing against AI opponents but against human opponents it isn't very suitable strategy. Russia would be perfect pairing with Kongo, pairing those two civs would allow a team essentially monopolize GWAM, Russia can give all Great Artist's sculptures to Kongo. Russia got best shot to take religion first and DotF for both Russia and Kongo for deterrent and then in renaissance era Kongo would earn very much gold and that can used to fund eventual Cossack purchasing/maintenance costs.


Greece then, indeed with changes for Hoplites they are better option than back in PBEM 2 when Pericles was used for last time. I disagree with your statement about lacking of Acropolises in past Greece games, oledavy did show a good use of it in PBEM 2 albeit realizing it in later part of PBEM 2, it can't be helped since PBEM 2 was in period that civilization 6 was new for us all. Moreover also since PBEM 2 Acropolis got additional bonus of getting envoy when finished it, it is more powerful with Pericles than Gorgo since Pericles get 5% culture for every suzerain.


You did sum up what India do, regarding Aztecs if you are in space race, you can simply finish very expensive space port district (3000) in 5 turns, also in old days strength bonus of luxuries also applies to religious units which causes Aztecs dominate in theological combat, I don't know whether it is still same now or it has changed with patches since beginning.

I have further thoughts about other civilizations, but I need to go to my job now and shall offer my thoughts later in evening.

[Japper007]

Personally I wouldn't take Kongo, they are interesting civ but I am not entirely convinced that they are that good as you say. Early UU is weaker and more expensive than normal swordsman, although bonuses are nice.
Mbanza is indeed good, however in order to use it, you need forests and rainforests which mean you need to weigh whether you should chop it or not or turn it in lumbermill or not. Rainforest is easier to make decision since they gives less production yield and is primary placement for Mbanza. But Rainforest don't appear anywhere, only at center of map and we might start close tundra which mean that rainforests might be far away.
Boost for GWAM is indeed nice, but Greece got half cost for Acropolises and can catch up with Kongo, Great Merchant however shall be entirely uncontested.

However I want to say that your decision to take Kongo in PBEM7 is very correct one, due its bonus to adopt founder beliefs of other religion. This way for example Kongo would also enjoy bonus of DotF, Crusade or Church Property if teammate found religion and takes this beliefs. The pairing with Khmer however is in my opinion not very good, idea behind using relics is nice thing against AI opponents but against human opponents it isn't very suitable strategy. Russia would be perfect pairing with Kongo, pairing those two civs would allow a team essentially monopolize GWAM, Russia can give all Great Artist's sculptures to Kongo. Russia got best shot to take religion first and DotF for both Russia and Kongo for deterrent and then in renaissance era Kongo would earn very much gold and that can used to fund eventual Cossack purchasing/maintenance costs.  


Greece then, indeed with changes for Hoplites they are better option than back in PBEM 2 when Pericles was used for last time. I disagree with your statement about lacking of Acropolises in past Greece games, oledavy did show a good use of it in PBEM 2 albeit realizing it in later part of PBEM 2, it can't be helped since PBEM 2 was in period that civilization 6 was new for us all. Moreover also since PBEM 2 Acropolis got additional bonus of getting envoy when finished it, it is more powerful with Pericles than Gorgo since Pericles get 5% culture for every suzerain.

I meant mostly Krill not using them in pbem5, which surprised me when I was still ingame as well (not a spoiler, as you can see this ingame there as well)

You did sum up what India do, regarding Aztecs if you are in space race, you can simply finish very expensive space port district (3000) in 5 turns, also in old days strength bonus of luxuries also applies to religious units which causes Aztecs dominate in theological combat, I don't know whether it is still same now or it has changed with patches since beginning.

Yeah I know the Space Race trick, just didn't seem worth mentioning since most games are long since decided at that point. The Theological combat bonus is still there, but that hardly seems to come into play at all in religious Multiplayer games (everyone is now very much aware of your Friendship-->conversions trick ) Another bonus to the Aztecs I remembered later is that eventually builders get cheaper than districts, so building them through a 5 Charge builder is essentially a discount on every District.

What would be your ranking then? Or do you even see some of the civs I didn't mention ïn my top 4 as strong?

[Japper007]

Hmm looks like the part of my reply on the Kongo didn't go through...

Anyway, while the Mbeba is weaker on the melee strenght (which incidentally also makes it cheaper to upgrade into from a warrior just FYI) the ranged strenght bonus more than makes up for it IMHO. Just consider what is involved in a civ 6 attack: first you focus-fire as many ranged units onto one target, then you take it out with a melee. Now looking at it with that knowledge at the back of your mind the Ngao has +10 strenght in the key face of combat and then is slightly weaker in the finishing stage. What this comes down to is something I've seen a lot of time: the Ngao tanks the ranged strikes and then the opposing party retreats because they are fighting an almost full strenght unit, meaning their swords take more damage since they don't have fortification bonus. I know I've shown lack of experience in these type of larger MP games, but the Ngao is the sort of stuff I'm very familiar with, as I almost always pick Kongo, even in Duels.

Mbanza can be built on Tundra forests as well, the only civ that thrives better in Tundra than Kongo is Russia. Kongolese towns can feed and pay for themselves with Mbanza while working mines or resourced hills for hammers, making Tundra shitholes actually pretty decent cities for them.

[Alhambram]

Other civs:

France, it is better to give them try at expansion game, there is bonus for diplomatic visibility. Also with Magnus it is easier to grab those expensive wonders, one of medieval Government building gives bonus for spy, useful for France to steal Great Works to fuel tourism further aside wonders.
But now in vanilla version, better ignore them.

Egypt, trade route bonus makes them interesting choice for team game, especially in combination with Cree. Standalone it needs some city state to abuse it, wonder bonus do seem not special at first glance, but with Autocracy and Corvee added, it basically becomes half cost to build wonders along rivers. You might give it a shot if you love wonder building, especially with absence of China in this PBEM. UU can be used as support unit for Horsemen rush since it can keep up with Horsemen unlike normal archer. To able to build districts at floodplains, well food bonus is generally better, however 15% discount combined with 25% discount of City Patron Goddess mean 35% discount which can be useful. I would give Egypt a chance to think about it with absence of China here.

Brazil, that civ is too depending upon rainforest and UU is a ship, so better to be left with water maps.

Norway, also better at water maps, in expansion 150% ship chop with Magnus is ungodly.

Spain, If I was playing here, I would pick Spain for fun. However to make good use of Spain, you need bit luck with continent placement and hope that your capital is near borders of continent to make use of trade route bonus. Spain's renaissance era if executed properly can be terrifying, a 80 strength Conquistador is possible with GG, chained religious unit and either crusade or DotF. You mentioned awareness of Friendship-conversion trick, with Spain you don't need it, just conquer a city with conquistador (or just one next enemy city while other unit capture city, is also good) and that city shall be auto-converted to your religion. With DotF belief your opponent shall have very hard time to recapture it, with church property every conquered city get +2 per turn profit. Mission improvement is quite good for faith and science generation.
The main problem of Spain is that it offers little till renaissance era except possible trade routes and +4 strength against other religions. Other more critical problem is that to make full use of Spain's power culture tree divert in two quite much: Exploration for Mission improvement is at top of civic tree which unlocks mercantilism which is nice for trade routes. At other hand powerful religious policy cards which suits Spain very well are situated at bottom of civic tree (theocracy government and war of religions policy cards for example). Another problem for Spain: no bonus to get GP, best way is go Stonehenge. If Spain don't suit your game play, then don't pick it.

America, +5 home continent bonus is good deterrent, even more with DotF equipped. But that is also all of America till modern age where America can rush for culture victory.

My personal ranking would be: 1. Spain, 2. Aztec, 3.Greece, 4.Egypt.

But it is you who is playing here, if you choose Kongo, I don't mind since I am supporting you regardless. Just choose what you think that it suits your game play the best.

[Japper007]

Oh right I also did my usual opponent analysis but it came up a bit short:

Suboptimal: only PBEM experienced player in this game beside me. I think he and I are in the ignoble race for most lost PBEM's now. He seems to fall into a Builder trap and screw up on the tactical level when fighting. His economic management is great though, he was ahead of the curve as Australia untill his elimination in PBEM 6 (?). He is also a stubborn defender and most importantly he always keeps fighting without losing hope no matter how dire the situation, keeping up reports till the turn of elimination

Rho: Only a few Single Player civ 4 reports, which are sadly no longer accesible beyond the stub here on RB. No MP experience, neither in 4 nor 6.

RFS: Mostly Master of Orion reports and a mediocre placement in Adventure 4. Seems to prefer building to military expansion judging from that report, up to his turn 250 victory he still has most of his initial neighbours intact, in Single Player civ 6 no less! No multiplayer experience whatsoever from what I can tell.

[Alhambram]

Just read about your section about Kongo, Mbanza useful at tundra forest, that one didn't occur with me, nice point!
If you are very familiar with Kongo and Ngao, then it is best for you to play with them.

And how to achieve victory? For Kongo there is two ways: win with cultural victory. Or leverage cultural bonuses, gold bonuses and food/growth bonuses into stronger tech/culture lead and crush neighbor that is behind you in tech/culture terms.

[Japper007]

Yeah I think I'll move the Aztecs up a bit making my final ranking:

1. Kongo
2. Greece
3. Aztec
4. India

I like your points on Spain, but I don't really like the religious gameplay. It seems you need too many things to go your way early on to make Spain strong, with no way to force these things through. Norway, eh I've played them already and the chopping stuff only comes into play with coastal cities with lots of plots to harvest, and there you want to preserve the forests to boost your temple replacement.

[Japper007]

And how to achieve victory? For Kongo there is two ways: win with cultural victory. Or leverage cultural bonuses, gold bonuses and food/growth bonuses into stronger tech/culture lead and crush neighbor that is behind you in tech/culture terms.

I would say "Why not both?" to this  A cultural lead can be easily translated into a scientific and military edge by having access to stronger policy cards and governments. Kongolese cities with themed Archeological Museums get immense production through Nkisi so they can churn out units pretty well (though long set-up). The gold income after Mbanza and Commercial Hubs is also staggering so you can eventually just buy an army.

My usual gameplan for Kongo:

Build up an army of archers and Ngao and go eat something: a city state or a weak neighbour, while focusing on getting GWAM through Theatre Squares in the core.

Then grow fat and rich with Mbanza and Commercial hubs.

Then translate this economic power into a victory (often cultural, but I've also won domination games by cash-rushing units)

[Alhambram]

Yeah I think I'll move the Aztecs up a bit making my final ranking:

1. Kongo
2. Greece
3. Aztec
4. India

I like your points on Spain, but I don't really like the religious gameplay. It seems you need too many things to go your way early on to make Spain strong, with no way to force these things through. Norway, eh I've played them already and the chopping stuff only comes into play with coastal cities with lots of plots to harvest, and there you want to preserve the forests to boost your temple replacement.

I can live with this ranking, I want also to say to not underestimate your opponents. You are likely not only one with dedlurker (Think that I saw TheArchduke post in Subopitmal's thread regularly).