[SPOILERS] JR4 and RefSteel are teaming up again in PB39

[JR4]

Spoilers alert.

[JR4]

Okay, time to start a new thread. I`ve had a few months off civ now and I`m ready for another adventure. Luckily RefSteel is coming along this time also, hopefully keeping me engaged, though with a bit less effort this time around. Which is... perfectly understandable. We spent a lot of time on that last game and people do have a real life outside RB of course.

The lineup this time is not so strong as in PB 37. Several new players will add some randomness to the game but as the game itself is getting old (about 13 years iirc) those new players tend to have a lot of experience these days. The civ sharks haven`t turned up here and this game is very winnable - if we can catch a lucky break here and there. Ipecac and Wetbandit do have some experience so I think it`s fair to count them as favorites but I think that we can compete with them.

[RefSteel]

Official dedlurker and idea-bouncing backboard checking in! I should note that there are a couple of players you didn't mention who have some experience: You and Dark Savant both had very credible showings in PB37! Win, lose, or draw, I hope this game turns out to be as much fun as that one did!

[JR4]

Welcome! Yes, Dark Savant and Yuris might deserve to be mentioned in the discussion of possible winner. Let`s see how the start pans out.

Having a little bit of experience with Rtr mod, I have changed my mind on several of the traits. In no particular order:

PRO - Well, this trait I certainly underrated before PB 37. Half-prized Granaries and free CG1 + D1 promos to Archery units is more than enough to consider choosing this. It does allow for some aggressive land-grabbing early on. Maybe we can pull off a "State of Zijin" stunt on someone else? Top tier trait.

SPI - You know what, I still like this trait - the flexibility and high level of investment needed for it to pay off will probably suit us.

PHI - I`ve warmed a bit to the thought of going for a Phi leader. We would obviously need some sort of a plan to make it work but getting out a ridiculously quick Academy/Shrine could be an option. Also, using Great Persons for bulbing is something which I haven`t done a lot but could be worth a try.

IND - I think this is a pretty weak trait. If we can be the only one with Ind, then maybe but we`ll need to be pretty sure of that before committing.

ORG - It`s still a good, solid trait. The problem is that it`s quite boring. Perhaps combining Org with a military trait could be feasible.

AGG - This is a trait I`d like to try out. Having cheap Barracks and a free promo to melee units will help out in the early game. Also, the small maintenance reduction bonus is nice.

CHA - Well, Joey showed how you could turn cheap Granaries and extra happiness into a solid position in our last game. As a rule, RB games are quite lush so there will probably be some early happiness resources around. Having more happiness for whipping is good, though. I would consider this trait for sure.

IMP - Cheap Settlers will allow for rapid expansion. I could be talked into this.

CRE - I`m still not a big fan of this trait. Yes, getting early border pops does count for something and 2 culture per turn is a lot better than 1 but still...

FIN - Probably the weakest trait in Rtr mod - but not by a big margin. A map with a lot of sea tiles makes this trait playable.


EXP - I still like cheap Workers and half-prized buildings a lot. Still, I`m leaning against having it as a trait in this game because we already played it. Honestly, I`d rather have Spi than Exp.

[RefSteel]

Hmm, looks like another snakepick, this one with 8 players. I think in RtR, the best bet is usually to pick civ first because the variance in quality is higher than between traits - there'll surely be something good to pick on the back end - unless we're late enough (but not last again, where there's no delay) and all the good civs for our start are gone already. Generally speaking, I'd take Inca or Zulu (depending on the starting screenshot or lack thereof) if I had first pick.

My favorite leader hands down is Brennus, ever since my first-ever game of Civ 4 (on Noble difficulty, lonnnnnnnng ago, not reported anywhere, though I referred to it a few times in my PB3 thread) but that's for fun, not for power. Looking over your list of traits, I'll add some of my own thoughts:

PRO granaries are wonderful, and the other stuff keeps it interesting and powerful throughout the game. Everybody loves RtR Pro.

SPI is still in my opinion the most fun trait in the game. I doubt if either of us has time individually or together to squeeze its value out of it this game, but if you really want to pour some time into that aspect of the planning, it'll still be a fresh trait in spite of playing it last time, partly because we did so little with it then, but partly just because you can do so many different things with it! If you don't have time to plan out a million crazy civic swaps in advance though, it might play out a little too much like the last game (and not be that strong).

PHI is the trait I'd be least confident of playing well if I were the one playing. Like SPI, it takes a lot of skill to leverage it correctly, and for this one you need to always be aware of the order in which the different Great Person bulbs work so you can take best advantage of them, among many other things. Played well, of course, it can be incredibly strong.

IND is very, very niche. Even with few or no other Ind leaders, it doesn't guarantee anything; it just lowers your opportunity costs and gains, and gives you some extra hammers to play with that others wouldn't have in the early-mid game. The sooner you can get to MC for Forges, and the more water there is on the map for Colossus, the better Ind can be, but it's probably among the weakest of the RtR traits.

ORG you summed up perfectly, and I have nothing to add.

AGG is really, really good in RtR. Temujin has a lot going for him, Monty is lots of fun, Tokugawa might be the strongest leader in the mod, and Boudica is a dream for the promotion game, among many others.

CHA is subtle and easy to miss, but it's stronger than it looks: The discounted libraries and self-synergy with half-price colosseums really make the trait.

IMP looks super straightforward, but actually has some quite interesting subtleties. You can win a settler race if you want to, but then you can also defend the site with the hammers you saved, and meanwhile figuring out how to maximize hammers into settlers and minimize food-to-hammer "waste" can be a really interesting little puzzle within the game. I'm not a fan of RtR Joao at all (he can be made to run like lightning, but he's really not my style) but give me Cyrus, Chuck, Temujin, or Yekaterina any day of the week.

CRE is super easy to use and makes basically everything easier, from teching (skip Myst and build discounted libraries) to production (save on monuments/barracks/etc) to defense (early cultural bonus for your cities) to dotmapping (obviously) to expansion (controlling more land more easily and getting new cities up to speed faster, with more and better tiles sooner). I think that's why we most likely don't want it, too: You can't get much more out of it with really clever play than you can by playing casually. Cre beats Phi when both players are asleep at the wheel, but Phi beats Cre when both players are intensely knowledgeable and engaged. (And then there's Pro/Agg/Imp/Exp/Org...)

FIN is massively map-dependent, and might be the weakest trait on anything short of a full-on archipelago, though I agree it isn't actually bad on maps with any significant water; RtR's balance is good, as advertised. It would work really well with IND, except they're both so slow, you'd lose the game before either one of them provided you with any kind of benefit, even if you had a fast-starting civ. Of note, the worst combo of all is probably Pacal. Speaking of whom...

EXP is indeed the trait we leaned on most heavily last game, which is why we don't want it again (strictly for variety). It is indeed strong in RtR, as we and others demonstrated a bit, and it works well with Imp even though I can't stand playing Joao, and that's enough on a trait we ~definitely won't be picking!

[JR4]

If we want to avoid Mongolia this time around we still have a lot of options. We should indeed probably pick our civ in the snakepick first.

I definitely agree that Zulu is a top pick even in this mod. Awesome UU and very useful UB. Oh, and the Zulu have good starting techs also. As last time we played I expect this to go quickly.

Inca is an option, especially if no one else goes for a Mysticism start. It solves the problem of how to expand borders early on of course. It`s only slightly behind Zulu in my book. 

Aztecs are playable. I think we both value Slavery a lot - even in the middle and late game and this would allow us to whip out an army or a lot of infrastructure at will. The UU is not the best but I still like this civ.

Russia is also good. That UU is strong and can provide the decisive edge in a Renaissance era war. The UB is still pretty good but hardly game-changing. 

Arabia would be all about the Madrassa. The option of getting a Great Prophet is valuable indeed. The UU is pretty meh.

India could perhaps come into consideration? That Fast Worker is immensely helpful in the early and mid game. The starting techs are, however, not the best. It`s a very slow starter.

[Erwin]

Your start. Note that the fog and corner tiles will be changed.

[JR4]

Thanks, Erwin!

Hmm, we`re 7th out of 8 players in the snakepick which could be good or bad.. We got a decent combo in PB 37 when we were last out of the 9 players in the snakepick back then so we should be able to get something decent here as well.

The first thing I notice about this start is that it`s not very tech-dependant. Yes, we`ll need Agriculture in time for the first Worker to complete but that tech isn`t strictly necessary if we want to try out a gambit. I`d say that Agriculture/Mining are our best starting techs. 

Zulu and Inca will probably not be there for us, sadly. That`s the top two choices imo. China could be an option here. It has those very techs that we need first and we could head directly for Bronze Working. Russia is still a good choice but I expect someone else to snag it. Perhaps France? The Ottomans is another option. Good starting techs, good UU and also a pretty decent UB. Maybe we could find a leader to go with this civ?

Right now I think some combo of PRO, AGG, CHA and IMP looks interesting. The start has a lot of food and our capital can whip out units and/or infrastructure quickly because of the huge food surplus. Two 6 food tiles will allow for an explosive start. Also, a second city could share one of those wet Corns in order to get up to speed asap.

[shallow_thought]

Will be lurking quietly in the corner. I was going to say that I think the variance between civs is mostly towards the low end - a long tail of civs with disastrously bad techs. So a small PB is a chance to pick for traits first. But at 7/8 it may not matter much.

Good luck, and have fun!

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I feel like I need an executive summary when you guys post. Lots of good information. Good luck, have fun.