[Mjmd #52 no players] Working on the Homestead

[Mjmd]

Welcome to my 2nd ever pitboss! And I'm only 52 turns into the 1st!

[Mjmd]

I sort of felt obligated to play because I had provided some very minor feedback in this mods creation. Mainly I tried to keep number of changes from becoming overwhelming for newer people like me! Plus I'm working from home right now sooo seemed like a good time.

Charriu wanted pick thoughts which means going over some of the mod changes. Full mod thread https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...p?tid=9939 for those curious. I'm just going to highlight stuff I care about. Feel free to skip; I'll put together a short pick list and thoughts after.

Techs

• Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
  
• Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
  
• Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
  
• Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of  450
  
• Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
  
• Mysticism: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace
  
• Astronomy: Add Paper as another prerequisite
  
• Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement
  

So most of this I either don't care about or agree with. However as I stated in the mod feedback, I love value. Even if it slows down development snowball which is the basis of civ4, I just can't pass up on the value of the +1 commerce that comes along with mysticism. Therefore I will be choosing a mysticism civ, which is nice that it narrows it down. #1 pick is India even with the nerf. Someone will pick, just hope I'm high enough in the pick order that its me.

Mechanics

Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
- WOAH, prioritize. Makes coastal cities more valuable. I realize plus 1 movement is good and I realize that naval warfare sucks in civ4, but this is pretty big. This is the modded version of the great lighthouse.....

 

Traits

This is the meat for picking. Note: everything in this section just lists the changes. I  haven't bothered to put full trait description in as if you've read this far in the post you probably know.

• Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce
  

Obviously needed a nerf. Definitely still good long, but it won't help you as early. I'm still high on.

• Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct
  

This trait is now very much about the granary bonus. As its the most important building in the game, probably still good.

• Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 50%, Remove production bonus for Colosseum
  

Creative is one of those traits I don't mind on tighter maps and it makes things a lot easier for single player random maps where resources are in all kinds of weird places. Nerf is minor but wouldn't be picking it either way with the size being proposed. Plus as I'm picking a mysticism civ a religion seems likely.

• Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +100% production of Colosseum
  

I liked this trait before; part econ with more happy part military thanks to less exp needed. However, it always felt wrong because you never really wanted to build monuments and it like it was wasting part of its thing. Bonus to producing monuments makes sense to fix this. Note: 2 100% production bonuses mean (whipping /other) overflow shenanigans. I suspect this is very strong if used well. 

• Imperialistic: +100% production of Stable
  

So it looks like this trait didn't get much. Stable bonus is nice, but there are two other buffs not listed under the trait. 1) No trait has bonuses for building workers, which alone was superior as they helped get the settlers our faster anyways. 2) Increased toroidal  maintenance is no longer a thing, meaning can actually afford to rex more. I LOVE rexing.      -Very possible expansive is still better because fast granaries are very good and also help get out settlers later. Mind this has the military stuff to balance out. This is probably better early game trait than expansive on a tighter map where you need to race to spots early and sure to be conflict. Not sure for this size.

• Aggressive: +1 happiness on Barracks and +100% production of Jails
  

Needed something, but this feels like a bit like charismatic. I don't want to start next to someone who is aggressive, but I will not be picking.

• Philosophical: +150% GPP instead of +100%
  

I picked a philosophic leader in PB51, but mind that was with a point system in place. This buff certainly makes it more tempting.

• Protective: +75% trade route yield (like Harbors do)
  

This is one where I would have to trust the math. On a water heavy map I could see this doing very good things. Also like charismatic its now a mixed economy military trait.

Unchanged traits

• Spiritual
  

Someone needs to join a pitboss and remind people how busted this trait can be. I am not that person.

• Organized
  

The trait that fluctuates the most with game difficulty. On monarch I do not expect anyone to pick.

• Industrial
  

Actually did receive a buff. All resources now only provide 50% instead of 100% for wonders, so more likely to get early wonders. Awkward thing about industrial is you get stonehenge and a few other early wonders maybe, but payoff is always a little shallow as your spending early hammers on not settlers, workers, infrastructure, or military. HOWEVER: there is one other change hidden away. The missing trait combos were added including IND/PHI. This combination was specifically left out in design. This just sounds fun and maybe good. Very tempting. Also interesting is that the metal casting change in beakers can be either a buff or a nerf. On one hand means industrial leaders don't have to go for oracle; however, this was also their strongest play giving them forges well before anyone else. Now they won't get the same value from this play.

Civ changes; mainly for Charriu to read later.

Inca UB: +1 culture instead of +2, Cost 70 instead of 60 - I realize Inca was strong, but it just feels bad to pay more on the most important building in the game. India you have to pay more for the most important unit, but at least that makes it up pretty easily. Do I have a solution, no ... other than I won't be picking.
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals - love this but wish hammer bonus kicked in with gunpowder. While the 2xp melee feels very Japanese with how the Samurai are in this game; fun historical fact is that Samurai started off as archers and were for most of their history.
Khmer UU: Stays at 8 strength instead of base units now 7 strength, requires Ivory or Iron - flavor fail even if there are good reason for
Native America Tech: Hunting/Agriculture instead of Fishing/Agriculture - cut just for change log length, plus with beaker amount changes I don't think its needed.

[Mjmd]

So picks. 1st pick is India. If India is taken I would take a leader. As stated in my wall of text I am taking a mysticism civ and those drop off pretty fast after India.

The smart pick is probably either Victoria (Imp/Fin) or Pacal (Exp/Fin). Unlike PB51 where there was a pt system, it is prob a slightly larger map, and there aren't as many greens I think I'll go with the classic pick 1 early game trait and 1 late game trait. I honestly think Imperialistic and Expansive are pretty close with this mod which is a good sign for the mod. Imperialistic starts snowball sooner, but cheap granaries are a hell of a drug. Imperialistic has the partial military focus to help defend my rexing vs expansive don't worry about health until coal plants and then only slightly.

Then there is the maybe not smart pick but HELL OF FUN pick of whatever new leader is (IND/PHI). How green do I want to be . No early trait but instead you get a trait that wants you to build things that aren't good for early snowball..... but man does it look fun long. Do a specialist economy based off of early settled great people. Is it good? Someone has to find out right RIGHT!!!....... I'm not going to lie if India is taken I want to do this sooo bad.

Mysticism civs to consider if India taken: Honorable mention Korea which I'm playing in PB51. Due to the slow start of mysticism civs I think I want wheel as my other starting tech just for early beaker value (I do love value) and to speed up myst civs slow start. Agriculture being cheaper really helps mysticism civs. Means either Arabia or Byzantium. If I don't go / get IND/PHI leader then Arabia for getting an early prophet (after scientist) might be nice plus its good for early border culture battles. Extra happiness from Byz theater replacement is nice, plus guaranteed to have horses. Byz also has better unique unit even with the nerf and buff to Arabia. Prob Byz over Arabia but will see. Holy Rome is the other one I would consider. That UB is soooo good; if I felt more confident in my early game I would be very tempted (honestly still am). If we get starting pics before picking I would feel better about it. Would not pick with the IND/PHI as that's quite enough slow; Byz would be the pick then.

[El Grillo]

Hi Mjmd, mind if I ded-lurk you?

[Mjmd]

I would vastly appreciate it.

For instance my last post was at 5:30am after baby woke me up. I was too much in a magic the gathering mindset of value. Holy Rome is definitely better civ with its UB and wheel can wait until after AH or BW. Holy Rome has 1 food tech and closer to AH. So here is my current pick order in order of how I would take:

1) India - Victoria (Imp/Fin)
2) (Ind/Phi) leader I should really look up the name of (pure fun factor pick and hell maybe its good)- Holy Rome (not amazing synergy except maybe oracle code of laws)
3) Holy Rome - Victoria (not that I think order matters if I'm this late in the pick order)

Pacal would be back up to Victoria in both cases. Not sure what leader I would take after that.

Give me your hot takes; sure Charriu would appreciate later.

[El Grillo]

Alright happy to be on board. I saw your feedback posts in the main CtH thread and thought you had some solid ideas. Let's just make sure we keep any PB51-specific info properly spoiled

Traits/uniques are a bit tough to evaluate in a vacuum, but I suppose we'll have to if there's no screenshot of the start. Do you want to play as generically strong a combination as possible, or try a particular buffed/changed idea? Going for the IND/PHI leader would certainly be novel, though I don't know if I could argue that it's the most-winning play, for example.

As for Mysticism, my gut feeling is that one raw commerce isn't going to make a substantial difference in the opening, certainly not as much as a +1h or +1f start. I think you'll shave a turn off your second tech (or maybe first if you open with AH or BW), and sure it pays for itself in under 60 turns due to prereq multipliers, but with Agriculture cheaper, I would prefer the flexibility of a Mining/food-or-Wheel start, even with slightly nerfed Slavery.

EDIT: I went back and checked the changelog and I guess Slavery wasn't actually changed yet? I thought it was going to 25h-per-pop. Guess I should probably actually download the mod!

[Mjmd]

Playing against you in PB51; my ded-lurker there is playing in this one. I promise nothing at 5am when the baby wakes me up but will try my best. Also won't hold punches against either.

So I am looking at testing changes and obviously want to have strong combinations. I think India is just still probably the best civ in a vacuum. It also is a mysticism civ. Yes +1F or +1H would be better, but I'll take what I can get. Ind/Phi is something the designers specifically left out so not only is it fun, but its never been done in a pitboss. If I have an extra chunk of time I might try to do a test game. Have to do a little more than opening sadly to test that combo. Seems really strong though especially with change to philosophic (needed mind). Idea would be to settle multiple great people, go pyramids, go rep, run even more specialists. This also naturally goes with myst for stonehenge prob after city 3.

I think Imperialistic is fairly comparable to expansive now early and financial is still good long so I think Victoria is strong. Imperialistic would especially help offset India increased hammer on worker. Both in timing get cities out but also can chop and 2 pop whip 2nd and 3rd city and after each overflow into worker.

As far as civs go unless its a tight map which it doesn't sound like, I prioritize economic buildings over UU (india gets an econ unit so its fine). My thoughts on doing Arabia and Byz were definitely early morning thoughts. Civs with best econ / development buildings in approximate order: Mali, Holy Rome, Zulu    No particular order: Korea, Aztec, Carthage, English, civs with happy buildings

Now I will say I tested Holy Rome for PB51 and didn't like that it sometimes resulted in wasted worker turns early. With the extra commerce hopefully this is reduced even more as well as reduced cost in agriculture*** (I can't emphasize how big this is). All myst civs probably still vulnerable to rushes but that is partially why Charriu implemented extra commerce. I honestly think with reduced agri cost it isn't needed, but will take 60+ extra beakers starting out. If I'm really late in the pick order and Holy Rome is taken and I can get Victoria or Pacal of Mali probably would do that over a meh myst civ.

Shoot out your 3 most busted combos you can think of; you don't need to justify. Just due diligence for Charriu.

[El Grillo]

Perhaps not busted, but fun pairings:
- CRE/SPI Aztecs with less clunky starting techs, buffs to Serfdom and Vassalage, and an overall stronger civic swap cycle
- EXP/IMP Khmer with peerless UU and cheap Baray/Stable for a late-Classical timing attack
- CHM/IMP Mongolia, skip Barracks for quick-and-dirty 2-promo Keshiks when you just really don't want your neighbor to have fun

And for the new trait pairs:
- ORG/PRO probably scales worse than FIN/ORG but the trade route modifier is not an insignificant bonus. Maybe play with Mali and politely tell your neighbors to leave you alone and come back in 150 turns.
- CRE/CHM is a bit clunky admittedly, but this is a contender for most flexible early game now that EXP workers are gone. Settle wide-apart and plan to grow tall, maybe pair with Maya for cheap Ball Courts?
- IND/PHI you've already discussed a bit, it's not my cup of tea for multiplayer for being such a slow starter. I'd probably skip most of the Ancient wonders and just try to grab as much land as possible, then leverage National Wonders and GPP in the midgame to look to make plays. Pair with Egypt perhaps for the strong early game, and succumb to avoid the temptation of going for Stonehenge + Obelisks

[Mjmd]

Someone is going to do EXP/IMP of Khmeer. Your CHM/IMP Mongolia also sounds good. Tighter map with less players I would be interested in both. I'm not really a war monger at heart although I will war. I also know I lack the MP battle experience some of these people have. Part of the reason I'm favoring IMP over expansive is just to get a partial military trait even if expansive might be better development overall.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vu2jJqM...sp=sharing