Return of the Horde: Temujin of Rome

[oledavy]

A question and an idea for you to consider.

Why do you have that warrior alternating between those two tundra tiles in the south?

I noticed all those tundra forests south of III, and had an idea. If we ever wanted to nail a wonder, you could plop a junk city down there, pop the borders with a merc artist and have workers chop all the forests in the BFC to get the wonder out.

[WarriorKnight]

Why do you have that warrior alternating between those two tundra tiles in the south?

To stop or at least know about if Team 1 are going for circum. Though since you've pretty much got your southern choke point under control, it probably isn't necessary to do so anymore.

BTW, I'll probably send my HA to continue my side of the quest for circum.

I noticed all those tundra forests south of III, and had an idea. If we ever wanted to nail a wonder, you could plop a junk city down there, pop the borders with a merc artist and have workers chop all the forests in the BFC to get the wonder out.

Interesting idea. Two problems though:

1) I can't switch in and out of Caste like you can, so I need to build a theatre/spread religion first. Shouldn't be a huge problem though.

2) What wonder did you have in mind exactly? After Taj there aren't any wonders available until the Industrial era, and by then I don't see how forest chop can beat a dedicated production city. There aren't that many good medieval wonders left either.

[oledavy]

2) What wonder did you have in mind exactly? After Taj there aren't any wonders available until the Industrial era, and by then I don't see how forest chop can beat a dedicated production city. There aren't that many good medieval wonders left either.

Didn't really have a particular one in mind. However, looking at the tech tree, the only one we could feasibly make it work for is the Taj Majal. After that, the wonders just get too expensive. And we're rather unlikely to get it with Team Spullerise setting up to get nationalism.

Still, it might be worth considering. If we fail to get Taj, we basically chop the forests into x2 gold courtesy of marble. I just hate to see good trees go to waste not getting chopped.

You know...



Another possibility would be to found a city, chop in a Jail & Security Bureau, and run the citizen and merc specialist as spies to produce 30 EPs every turn. The problem there is I'm not sure Democracy is a worthwhile tech for it's cost with the SoL banned. However, even without a Security Bureau the city would be worth 18 EPs. Your call on whether that's actually worth the mantainence costs though.

[WarriorKnight]

Didn't really have a particular one in mind. However, looking at the tech tree, the only one we could feasibly make it work for is the Taj Majal. After that, the wonders just get too expensive. And we're rather unlikely to get it with Team Spullerise setting up to get nationalism.

Still, it might be worth considering. If we fail to get Taj, we basically chop the forests into x2 gold courtesy of marble. I just hate to see good trees go to waste not getting chopped.

Not a terrible idea, need a ton of workers to pull it off though. Although your right that Spullarise would probably get there first.

Another possibility would be to found a city, chop in a Jail & Security Bureau, and run the citizen and merc specialist as spies to produce 30 EPs every turn. The problem there is I'm not sure Democracy is a worthwhile tech for it's cost with the SoL banned. However, even without a Security Bureau the city would be worth 18 EPs. Your call on whether that's actually worth the mantainence costs though.

Given our Espionage has been pretty terrible all game (although if Team 1 didn't spend all of their EP's on us since T1 we'd be doing a lot better), it also wouldn't be a bad idea. We need Const first though, and that's a fair bit down the road.

Anyway, since Speaker drooped the GA bomb, I assumed that the naval assault on Parley was off. Then I noticed this:



I don't have visibility on the 2 tiles S of city 10. Clearly I've forgotten the rules of sea visibility again. What this meant for Parley was:



A blind attack is actually viable, even after the GA bomb. Only problem is getting to that tile undetected, which is actually the main difficulty now. Either I need to plant on Shoot's city sign (requiring a new dotmap), build a fort (which will be a dead giveaway) or wait for circum (which best case scenario will be at least 15-20 turns from now, may not even get it in the first place).

New dotmap is probably the best option, but it does cause some problems. Older map for reference:



If I do switch, the best spot seems to be 2S1W of city 10 (it has to be either there or 1N) and 1W of filler. It's more secure from naval attacks, having only 1 city on the northern and western seas instead of 2. Gives Speakerise more rivers and hills to take cover from though via the land route though, although if I did lose the front city on my old dotmap then they'd those hills for cover anyway.

There's quite a bit of time to decide either way, as Parley and bomb city won't expand borders for quite a while, and I doubt Speaker will build ships on this sea until it's too late. Team, what do you think?

[Shoot the Moon]

Only problem I see is that it loses that fish. What about on my "city" sign and one south of your "city 11?" sign?

Spullarise can of course just get visibility on that with optics though, so if they ever go for astro that surprise isn't going to hold.

[NobleHelium]

Yes, that tile is invisible until Optics is researched.

[WarriorKnight]

Only problem I see is that it loses that fish. What about on my "city" sign and one south of your "city 11?" sign?

Spullarise can of course just get visibility on that with optics though, so if they ever go for astro that surprise isn't going to hold.

I missed the fish. I don't like is how hard it is to hook up and maintain both fish, however given that it's the only food in the area it would be silly to ignore them. Other problem is defense, both cities are on flatland with lots of hills nearby and can be forked with a naval landing 1SW of your city. Still, if the naval attack works, a lot of these problems will go away.

True I forgot Optics, but I don't see how Optics is a priority for Spullarise unless their conflict with Team 2 has some naval action as well. If I do attack it'll be within some 10-15 turns, I doubt they'll have Optics by then.

[oledavy]

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I seriously doubt a raid on Parrrlleey is viable. As soon as Speaker sees the culture from your new city, he'll realize a you have a canal option. More importantly, they have our graphs. If they're playing at the level they did for PB2, they have been tracking our military builds. Only way this works is if we have complete surprise. Defending during this age is just so easy; and they currently have access to longbows, pikes and castles. Anything short of overwhelming force will fail to take the city.

Best chance I can see of achieving total surprise is:

1. Found filler city on the forested grassland hill.
2. Fort the desert hill 1NW
3. Boat City

If he gets naval recon out or optics, the gig is up. What we have going for us here is he's probably pre-occupied with Team #2 and isn't overly concerned with us at the moment. They'll see you building knights, probably write it off as you going after Sunrise, and tell him to build a few pikes.

Viability aside, I really don't see any real benefit of razing the city. You don't get any long-term security for your northern cities out of it. If you succeed, he simply refounds the city under a heavier guard. Attacking amphibiously, you're going to lose more hammers in units than he will. Additionally, while knights could be used somewhere else after the assault, the galleys cannot be as easily redeemed and will likely not get used again before astronomy, representing a waste of hammers.

Overall, I think that success offers only a marginal advantage. That's a front city that's unlikely to get much infrastructure, so ultimately by razing it you kill whatever units he has staffing the city, the pop and infrastructure in the city, plus the 97 hammer settler for a similar hammer investment on your end. If you fail, it just represents a waste of hammers that could go into infrastructure, expansion, or units to use against Sunrise.

[WarriorKnight]

Nothing exciting happening in Rome currently. Main focus is currently on growth and infrastructure, although I am currently building 2 settlers for backline marble and frontline fishing spots. Currently get around 120gpt which is a nice improvement over a couple of turns ago and still increasing. Also 2nd in food and with my cities growing to their caps, I'm starting to pull away in MFG again.

First fur online next turn. Surplus furs will have to wait for a border pop, but should be available within the next 7-10 turns.

I am a little concerned about military after Shoot's unfortunate razing, but my front city is pretty secure and I'm still 1st in military. Parley naval landing is still a possibility but since my focus is elsewhere I doubt I'll go forward with it. I don't have any other military plans other then defending for the foreseeable future while I finishing settling the rest of my land. Sometime in the hopefully not too distant future I'd like to take a shot at sunrise's capital, although I don't see that happening until Cuirassiers at the very least.

[oledavy]

Hey WK, I wrote you a quick note in game: If we get Nationalism sooner rather than later, you should chop Hermitage out in Kararorum B to culturally pressure elo hell.

B can be surprise-attacked out the fog by knights, let's get a pike in there ASAP.

Shoot and I both already expressed interest in IMP settlers. On a related note: formation pikes. I know I could use some down the road and I'm sure Shoot could too. Formation Pikes out the gate are our big advantage from AGG, and they're decent counters to cuirassiers. Let's focus on getting as many out as possible.

It's been awhile since it was mentioned, but after you're done with Shoot's stone, I need it (cancel on t139 I believe).

On that note, I still have your marble, though the deal can be cancelled at any time. If we were going to make a run at the Taj, you would be the one to do it by chopping all those forests to the south. If we micro'd well, I bet we could 1t it and beat Team #1 to the wonder. Just something to ponder.