[PB58 Spoilers] Sea Monsters and Other Lurking Types

[Charriu]

No, it wasn't. Like I mentioned somewhere in the report, I still tracked it to get some edge case numbers. After all we can expect FIN players during the actual implementation to do better then this.

[Mjmd]

Its interesting that Serdoa/Mr Cairo is doing so well in the Fin numbers even with the lighthouse requirement as I know Cairo said Serdoa hadn't built as many cottages as Cairo would have.

[Charriu]

Yes, he did worse in that category back in the T100 report, but since then he most likely has built lighthouses. At least from their screenshots I can see some lighthouses in place.

[Charriu]

A world war without Superdeath? I think after this game we have to reevaluate Superdeath' image

[Serdoa]

Charriu, I believe for your lighthouse-nerf to FIN you should specifically look at my numbers. When you look at all players and state that 

It's no surprise that the reduction is lower for ORG leaders as they have more incentives to build lighthouses. Compared to T100 we now see that the reduction is in a more reasonable area with most players in the area of 18% - 23%.

I feel you are missing some points:

1) As you stated yourself the ORG leaders have more incentive to build lighthouses. But that means the reduction is in a reasonable area when the player has not picked FIN but ORG. And yes, of course it then will appear reasonable because these players can build Lighthouses early and cheap. FIN cannot do so, as indicated by my numbers.

2) As you also noted, AT isn't using FIN to its potential. Looking at his numbers is therefore - even though he is FIN - not really sensible either. After all, the point can't be "When you don't actually use your trait, nerfing it isn't hurting you as much".

3) Leaves SD and Ruff. Ruff, being FIN, shows the same nerf of 30%+ as I do. He did lose the game after reaching 12 cities and not expanding further but that means he was stuck in "early game", so that is a pretty good indication imo.
SD does at first glance look like he runs counter to my argument, but he is EXP/CRE so while not ORG he did save quite a bit of hammers on early game buildings that he could invest in Lighthouses most likely. He also did not settle as many coastal cities at the start as far as I could tell, so obviously these numbers do not look as bad.

Basically I think I'm the one player that actually did use FIN on a water map quite effectively and if I'm showing a 30% decrease that will make FIN pretty useless on water maps.

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Two other things unrelated:

1) You calculated the delta between commerce and maintenance. That does beg the question: Did you include EP? Because Jowy did produce quite a bit and while they are not useless due to our rules they are not similar to beakers or gold imo. The difference should be a good 1000 points I'd say.

Also I think calculating the delta between commerce and maintenance and ignoring the multipliers has some issues. CRE is a good trait because you can cheaply build libraries. Me building a shrine and having a market in the city is - as can be seen by the numbers - quite profitable on this map.

Especially if you present that as "General state of the game". If I look at the above points the actual standings should see Mr. Cairo and Jowy much closer together, maybe Mr. Cairo even in the lead, while your numbers suggest he is ~15% behind.

2) As to the point of building more cottages. I think that is a very interesting topic. I was also feeling I should build more but at the same time, I had them on (nearly) all riverside grassland tiles. And had started getting them on grassland as well. But comparing non-river grassland cottages to coast it does take ~60 turns IIRC before grassland will have produced more beakers than FIN-coast

10 Turns: 1 gold cottage - 3 gold coast = 20 commerce down
20 Turns: 2 gold hamlet - 3 gold coast = 20 commerce down (total 40 down)
40 Turns: 4 gold village - 3 gold coast = 40 commerce up (total 0 difference)

And finally, after 70 turns building the cottage at the start would be better. If you haven't build them till T100, you probably have to consider how long that game will actually go (and if you can work the tile every single turn).

[Charriu]

Charriu, I believe for your lighthouse-nerf to FIN you should specifically look at my numbers. When you look at all players and state that 

It's no surprise that the reduction is lower for ORG leaders as they have more incentives to build lighthouses. Compared to T100 we now see that the reduction is in a more reasonable area with most players in the area of 18% - 23%.

I feel you are missing some points:

1) As you stated yourself the ORG leaders have more incentive to build lighthouses. But that means the reduction is in a reasonable area when the player has not picked FIN but ORG. And yes, of course it then will appear reasonable because these players can build Lighthouses early and cheap. FIN cannot do so, as indicated by my numbers.

2) As you also noted, AT isn't using FIN to its potential. Looking at his numbers is therefore - even though he is FIN - not really sensible either. After all, the point can't be "When you don't actually use your trait, nerfing it isn't hurting you as much".

3) Leaves SD and Ruff. Ruff, being FIN, shows the same nerf of 30%+ as I do. He did lose the game after reaching 12 cities and not expanding further but that means he was stuck in "early game", so that is a pretty good indication imo.
SD does at first glance look like he runs counter to my argument, but he is EXP/CRE so while not ORG he did save quite a bit of hammers on early game buildings that he could invest in Lighthouses most likely. He also did not settle as many coastal cities at the start as far as I could tell, so obviously these numbers do not look as bad.

Basically I think I'm the one player that actually did use FIN on a water map quite effectively and if I'm showing a 30% decrease that will make FIN pretty useless on water maps.

You bring up some good points. Let me first react to the lighthouse-nerf. It's important to note that the lighthouse-nerf was not in place for this game. To that extend I have an important question? Did you work a lot of coast tiles without any resources before building a lighthouse? From the T100 numbers I can at least assume that you worked more water tiles. As for your points:

1) A lot of my reaction here depends on your answers to aboves questions. Yes, FIN cannot built lighthouses cheaper, but I guess if you need them to unlock the bonus you might built them a little bit sooner and therefore in turn making the gap compared to BtS smaller.

2) Yes, AT hasn't played FIN that well, but I also can't ignore his numbers. His empire is developed compared to a failed empire like Ruff's. But in the end you are right, that you would have lost way more commerce then AT on the water.

3) Ruff was/is playing Catherine (IMP/CRE) so he's not FIN and has a failed economy before and a crumbling empire now. That's why his numbers have less meaning.

Yes, you were playing this FIN very effectively on water, but FIN is far from useless on water. Don't forget this is a 30% decrease compared to BtS and not the current CtH implementation. Even with the lighthouse-nerf you were still doing more commerce then anybody else. In the end we are already running the lighthouse nerf in a big game with 25 players. After that game we can most surely make a very good assessment of the nerf. I will keep your feedback in mind for after PB59.


Regarding your other issues:

1. No, I'm not tracking EP in fact I'm not tracking were a player spends their commerce and I now see that I should do that. The Total Commerce is just what the player gets in commerce from all tile yields and trade routes. The Gold and Science statistics include modifiers, but they don't mean that the player was running any kind of percentage of science or gold. Rather they represent the gold or science output if the player would run 100% of those. So those are not real numbers, because players do not always run 100% of gold for all turns.

2. It's definitely not wrong what you are saying and worth thinking about. But is there anything I as a mod developer need to do with regards to this topic? I think the current FIN implementation of extra commerce for 3 commerce tiles is already quit effective as a nerf on land.

[Mjmd]

On a side note from that conversation this game is really interesting. Its close (other than Ruff) and has lots of plans going on.

[Mjmd]

Tarkeel taking that city is basically going to mean they 100% will need to deal with Thog at some point. AT can threaten multiple Tarkeel cities from there. AT's cultural presence and vision will be super annoying.

[Charriu]

To bad Ruff posted his military advisor so late. Would have loved to see how many scouts there were

[Old Harry]

Presumably the lack of early whipping was because he had spear-pike upgrades in the pipeline. Just a little too late.