[SPOILERS]The 3 Muscateers playing Ragnar of Rome!

[spacetyrantxenu]

I'm reading the reports and enjoying them, though I'm not contributing much to the discussion. You may have already played this part but I agree with Cheetah, triple whipping the settler is better IMO since you'll get the city founded sooner and generate more hammers for the same happiness penalty. That said, you have to determine if you need the settler sooner -- do you have sufficient garrison for it prepared in time for a 3-whip, and are there enough worker turns available where you want to place the new city to help make it productive immediately?

One other point, you said we were being compensated for having to read this thread, that is obviously not true. I've yet to see a penny for my troubles or my thoughts!

I'm still waiting for an explanation for this, too:

Hey xenu, I turned redneck tonight!

This should be good....

[Catwalk]

t46 report

The game is starting to get eventful!

Azza completed the Oracle last turn, and he decided to take Code of Laws with it. That secures Confucianism for him, and he has switched already since he is Spiritual. Probably a good choice for him, but definitely good for us too. 3 players are still left without a religion, and there is only Christianity (Theology), Taoism (Philosophy) and Islam (Divine Right) left. Those 3 players (Waterbat, Xenon and Superjm) will hopefully be a little distracted racing each other for Philosophy, then Theology and the loser will have to tech Divine Right. Possibly one or two of them will adopt someone else's religion, I might offer to sell a jewish missionary to Xenon if he fails to get Philosophy. This also means that Colossus is still up for grabs, and I'm very interested in it. If it looks like we have a chance, I want to have a go at it after Currency and Monarchy. Putting it in the capital together with GLH means 4 GPP for a GM each turn, and I love trade missions. Early on a mission will yield 600, easily worth 750 beakers. That's like power bulbing without restrictions, except it takes a little while to burn through the cash. Total expenses are currently at 17 gpt, each new city adds around 8-10 gpt to that so I'll reach 50 gpt in expenses soon. If I do manage to land both wonders there, I want to add a market and run merchant specialists. Alternately, add Temple of Artemis and just run however many specialists I can. A shrine will effectively reduce marginal upkeep of new cities by 1 making it easier to REX (especially in combination with GLH). 4 foreign trade routes, shrine income and the city tile commerce would cover 10 gpt in upkeep for new cities. Speaking of islands:

I believe these ocean tiles (with commerce) prove that there is land nearby, I've marked them with signs. It looks like there is one tile 2S1W and 3S of the top left sign. A city 1N of the clams will be able to provide galley access with second ring culture. When I explore the east coast of that desert arm I'll need to trail the coast closely in order to check for island access sites. It would be huge to have access to these islands before other players, so this is a high priority. Once GLH completes and Currency comes online, one of the new cities will have to go there. I currently have a border agreement with Xenon stating that neither one of us can settle past the gold until agreed otherwise (and as long as we have a NAP). The NAP expires t52 and he declined 4t ago to extend it to t60, will need to keep a close eye on the situation.

Waterbat has completed barracks in his capital city, meaning that his only high production city is still not producing wonders. It looks like our warrior harrassment had the desired effect of provoking or scaring him. Reloading old saves reveals that he actually finished the barracks two turns ago, so he's likely producing an axeman soon. With two axeman of our own underway I'm not concerned, although it might cause some trouble for our plan to settle up on him. Assuming he builds 2 axemen as well that will put us up 33 hammers so far, as he's built a barracks to get the C1 promotion that we get for free. I think I want barracks in CC after the granary in order to get another 2 axemen for the pink dot. I have noted down movement for his warrior and our axeman over the next 2 turns. He will be able to pillage the road W of EE, but in doing so he'll be wiped out the following turn. His chance of razing EE will be around 6%, if he succeeds in doing so we will be set back massively. He knows it's the holy city, so he might actually go for that. He'll probably suspect an axe underway, and chances are he's doing soldier C&D (I know from other games he's doing fairly thorough C&D). So there's little to lose in taking the shot.

I almost decided to get barracks in AA before completing the axeman. Being Aggressive, the extra promotion would give us a big advantage in case Waterbat sends an axeman our way. However, it would delay both the GLH and the axeman by 2t and that would allow Waterbat to pillage my sheep. As mentioned above, I'm sending 2 axemen in short order and getting barracks of my own.

DD is up to size 2 and well underway to completing the granary, working the gold mine for another 2 hammers. I will switch to a flood plains farm once it finishes in 2t, will let it grow to size 3 after another 3t and reclaim the gold mine.
I'm reading the reports and enjoying them, though I'm not contributing much to the discussion. You may have already played this part but I agree with Cheetah, triple whipping the settler is better IMO since you'll get the city founded sooner and generate more hammers for the same happiness penalty. That said, you have to determine if you need the settler sooner -- do you have sufficient garrison for it prepared in time for a 3-whip, and are there enough worker turns available where you want to place the new city to help make it productive immediately?[/quote]
At the time, I knew that Waterbat had his warriors tied up chasing mine around and I had a warrior available to reinforce it. Sure enough, Waterbat's warrior showed up a turn after I had started fortifying it. I have not reinforced DD yet because of my NAPs with Xenon and Azza, I will put one there soon. I also don't have any garrison in CC, as that warrior was sent off to EE in the east. Superjm has been sniffing around with a warrior, but it has since headed west. Worker micro also matched up with roading and chopping a forest for a granary.

One other point, you said we were being compensated for having to read this thread, that is obviously not true. I've yet to see a penny for my troubles or my thoughts!

Well, start thinking and you'll get paid!

For purposes of trade routes, will I need to scout out Azza's capital or more of his coastal cities? I have visibility on one coastal city and will have a coastal route defogged shortly. If I don't need anything else for trade routes I think I will withdraw that warrior to save on upkeep.

As for my redneck conversion, I was invited to a redneck birthday party and drank plenty Bud Light. I also fist bumped a lot and talked about Nascar racing. I'm one of them now.

[Catwalk]

t47 report

AA will overflow nicely into a Lighthouse with 19 hammers, double whipping it next turn at 7 pop. Will take off the corn after that and have it stop growing while getting rid of of whip anger, letting BB use it instead. Next turn 22 hammers will overflow into GLH, 112 hammers remaining. That will take me 9t starting t49 without any chopping. I don't know where my estimates went wrong earlier, but that means Math won't be needed quite as urgently. I decided to go ahead and research Priesthood first for the discounts, the discount on Writing and the overflow into Mathematics will almost pay for it. I'm delaying Hunting a bit since Waterbat chased my workers back a little bit.

BB is finally getting some love after being stuck with the same 3 tiles forever. First cottage is up, another coming soon. It will have a lot of food surplus in the foreseeable future, so I will be doing a lot of whipping. Thought about putting up a monument to grab the FP tile, but that seems like meager returns on the investment. I will likely build another axeman after this one, then triple whip a settler at size 6. By the time it grows back I will hopefully have furs hooked up.

CC is also slowly starting to look like a real city. I will whip the granary next turn and start barracks afterwards. It maxes out at 15 production, 17 if I work a 1/2 forest. It can manage 13 production without extra farms, that will require border expansion to claim the extra grassland hill.

The farm will complete next turn. It can work the gold mine for 1t and still grow on the same turn, I want to use that turn to get max overflow on Writing. Going to send Xenon a proposal for t57 NAP extension, still no garrison here.

I will whip the granary in 2t, leaving 6 food in the box out of 14. I sent a worker back to the plains hill, as it was out of range of Waterbat's warrior. I really want to work improved wheat as soon as possible, will get to that after mining the hill. Thinking about building barracks here as well, it will have a food surplus of +8 so I may as well work the PH mine on a regular basis. That'll give it a production of 9, sufficient for decent unit production. EE really doesn't have very many good tiles to work: Sheep, wheat, furs, PH mine. After that there are 4x grassland and 1 tundra fur. Whipping lots of units should work out okay.

Waterbat moved SW, so he won't be threatening the northern tiles. Should he change his mind about attacking EE, I will have another 10% from fortification. That pushes the chance down to around 3%, so I'll consider EE safe. If I got a 6% chance of razing an important city of a rival, I'd probably go for it. Should I have sent an axeman to reinforce EE right away, knowing there might be a warrior underway? I would have been in trouble if he'd sent two.

5t left! Maybe less of Xenon has roads we can use. I'm willing to bet 100g that we got this. Maybe PBEM29g gave me a small edge on this; Sian did clue us in that the map was somewhat similar, and we did manage to land Magellan's there.

Xenon is working an unimproved coast tile and hasn't improved the cows yet. He also just settled a city E of the PH this turn, revealed by borders. Interestingly, the intel proves my earlier land C&D about where he settled to be wrong.

Xenon and Azza still have no contact. Everybody but me and Arch have Writing, so it's interesting to see who has OB. Waterbat has OB with everybody but me and Arch, suggesting that he's diplomatically active. Superjm only has OB with Waterbat, suggesting he pays less attention to diplomacy. Noone has offered Arch trade routes, in spite of him having contact with all players. I decided to go back and track when players first met:
t29 Waterbat and Arch meet
t30 I meet Azza, he has met Waterbat
t32 I meet Xenon, he has met Arch
t34 I meet Superjm, he has met Arch and Waterbat
t39 Azza and Superjm meet
t43 Waterbat and Xenon meet
t44 OB between Waterbat and Azza + Superjm
t45 OB between Waterbat and Xenon and between me and Azza + Xenon

Score is finally catching up with me. 20 land points on t45, 6 on t46 and population growth. Azza is also spiking, helping to disguise my position a bit. Azza is second in population, 4 cities with 14 population vs my 5 with 15 population.

GNP is starting to look better, but it's mostly due to Jewish culture.

Waterbat's production has dropped a lot due to whipping, his capital has been at size 3 last two turns. Our own is spiking, and will rise another 3 points next turn in the capital. Also starting to whip pretty good.

The crop yield graph shows my rivalry with Waterbat over the last several turns, recently he's fallen off due to major whipping. These are the pop changes I have noted for him and me since t41:
Waterbat -2, +1, +1, -1, -2, +1 = -3
Catwalk +1, +2, 0, +1, +2, -2 = +4

I'm not sure if that's Waterbat's barracks or axe I'm seeing, is it correct that graphs are delayed a turn or two? My own spike seems to coincide with training an axe and teching Sailing.

Culture graph shows Waterbat's two expansions and his library, as well as our holy city and lots of stuff for Arch.

[Catwalk]

t48 report

Priesthood has been completed, I decided to pick Writing next and setting science to 0%. I will get an 80% bonus on Writing, so I will need max overflow into something. I need both Writing and Hunting by t55 or so, and I'm seriously considering this tech path:

Hunting t49 (need it for camps and I would like to train a scout or two for coastal defogging)
=> Writing t51 (I want one in DD after completing the Granary)
=> Iron Working t54 (the cold war with Waterbat is on, and I don't want to build more axes than necessary)
=> Monarchy t60 (lets me double revolt into HR + OR, raising my happy cap by 1 and allowing me to start building missionaries)
=> Mathematics t64
=> Currency t70
=> Calendar t75 (might rush this with wealth, I would very much like to get MoM)

AA will be able to complete GLH much faster than expected. We won't get Mathematics fast enough to make a difference unless we delay GLH lots, so I'm going ahead with a plan to triple chop it to completion on t54. Whip anger also disappears t54, so I will have it grow to size 6 on this turn. Furs will be connected on t57, so I might grow it to size 7 as well. Planning on double whipping a settler around this time, triple whipping will be difficult because of high production and food.

BB completes an axeman which will be sent to reinforce CC. It will arrive in time to defend it from Waterbat's warrior, and if he tries to pillage the corn I will be able to kill it the turn he steps on it. Whip anger goes away in 2t, letting me grow to size 5 and then size 6 for triple whipping a settler. Probably getting another axeman while growing, as Waterbat's power is spiking.

I just whipped the granary in CC, using avoid growth to store more food in the granary. It is able to fill the food box precisely this turn, so next turn I will put 10 food in the box when growing. Planning on building barracks here next, it's nicely situated to send soldiers anywhere.

DD will grow to size 3 ASAP, decided to skip the gold mine for now as I don't need to rush Mathematics anyway. I will whip the granary at size 3 once it fills half the food box. Also, notice the weird looking coast tile 2W1N of DD? This is an ocean tile, which means that I can't get trade routes with Xenon yet. Grrrr! I assume this was an accident, unless everybody has an ocean tile here for some reason. I will need a library or a monument here soon, as I'm losing lots of commerce this way. A library would be nice, I have enough food to run 2 scientists soon for my first GS. If possible, I want to time it so it has 64 GPP when the GM from AA is born. That will happen on t77, allowing me to get the GS on t95. I will need to start the scientists on t61 for this to happen. I might add a market and plan on running two merchants along with the scientists, given the massive food capability DD has. If I were to farm all FP tiles I'd get +14 food (including the gold mine). This would mean losing out on a good commerce site, though. I could put a city 3E of DD (on top of FP) to work gold, clams and 5 coast tiles. It would be able to borrow the rice for rapid growth.

Estimated happiness status by t80:
4 base
+1 gold
+1 furs
+1 silver
+1 gems
+1 HR
+1 Judaism
+1 temple
= 11 base happiness. Add 3 by the time we get forges. That's a lot more than previously imagined, we should be fine on happiness. Health also won't be an issue, it should be very easy to stay ahead of our population growth.

EE got slowed down by retreating the workers, so it doesn't have an extra tile available for size 2 yet. I have whipped the granary and queued it, meaning that it won't be built yet. That lets me start cooling off whip anger sooner (so I can whip some more!), as the granary is ineffective until I fill half the food box and size 2 is only worth 1 hpt right now.

The micro screen is kind of messy, and has been changed around a bunch of times. I've decided to let the western worker complete a grassland hill mine for CC rather than moving N and building the road + another cottage, one of the workers E of AA will do that instead.

Yep, Waterbat means business. 58k power suggests that he has 2 or 3 axes. I expect at least one of those to drop by EE soon within 6-8t. I will have at least 2 axes there by that time, possibly another one produced in EE. I'm still planning on expanding in his direction, which is why I need Iron Working. Furthermore, in the event that I don't currently have Iron settled I'll need to account for it by the time my next settlers are done.

Questions for dedlurkers:
1) DD plans. Do you like the GP farm idea, or do you think it should all be cottaged? It has clams, an oasis and 6x FP, giving a food surplus of either +16 with farms or +10 with cottages, excluding the gold mine. It would actually be possible to have the best of both worlds, zero food surplus while working 12 tiles and running 4 specialists. Cottages would likely have to be delayed, probably 4 FP farms required.
2) Tech path. What do you think about prioritizing Iron Working and delaying Currency? With GLH and cottages we will have plenty commerce for rapid expansion in the foreseeable future, while still teching Currency at decent speed. I expect we will be able to afford another 4 coastal cities without Currency, costing a total of around 50 gpt and earning 16 gpt + worked tiles.
3) Military plans. What's your take on the Waterbat situation? Obviously we won't be invading with how much he's prioritizing military, question is if we should stick with the pink dot plan. If so, when should we settle it and how much military should we bring?

These questions will be valid for a couple more turns, so don't be shy Bonus points for anyone who checks the save before answering!

[Catwalk]

Teaser report:

Waterbat offered peace, 20t NAP and OB. I decided to accept, adding a no passage clause. He didn't mention a border agreement, so I intend to use this to rush a settler over to the pink dot location. Thought long and hard about it, as I imagine he's going to settle in my direction too.

[slowcheetah]

Questions for dedlurkers:

1) DD plans. Do you like the GP farm idea, or do you think it should all be cottaged? It has clams, an oasis and 6x FP, giving a food surplus of either +16 with farms or +10 with cottages, excluding the gold mine. It would actually be possible to have the best of both worlds, zero food surplus while working 12 tiles and running 4 specialists. Cottages would likely have to be delayed, probably 4 FP farms required.
2) Tech path. What do you think about prioritizing Iron Working and delaying Currency? With GLH and cottages we will have plenty commerce for rapid expansion in the foreseeable future, while still teching Currency at decent speed. I expect we will be able to afford another 4 coastal cities without Currency, costing a total of around 50 gpt and earning 16 gpt + worked tiles.
3) Military plans. What's your take on the Waterbat situation? Obviously we won't be invading with how much he's prioritizing military, question is if we should stick with the pink dot plan. If so, when should we settle it and how much military should we bring?

1) If you aren't planning on moving your capital getting a GS soon sounds good to me, and DD does sound promising for a GP farm. We can probably cottage some of the tiles at least initially, firstly because it's unlikely we'll have enough good specialists slot until we dip into caste for a bit. Secondly because they take less worker turns to put up.

2)I agree with IW first, we're in a hot and cold war with waterbat, lets at least have our scary UU on the board (we also need to find the iron).

3) I wouldn't pink dot quite that far out it'll just be a bugger to defend, particularly with it's lack of cultural support from other cities of ours and waterbat's creativity. I do think concentrating on getting a marble and wines city as soon as possible should be a priority.

Further thoughts:

To get the MoM we may have to go calender before currency. Of course you are doing C and D so we should actually know if this is needed.

I actually quite like the barracks in cheetah:neenernee. Grow on the barracks then two whip a worker when whip anger's gone?

I didn't look at the save so no bonus points for me

[Catwalk]

1) If you aren't planning on moving your capital getting a GS soon sounds good to me, and DD does sound promising for a GP farm. We can probably cottage some of the tiles at least initially, firstly because it's unlikely we'll have enough good specialists slot until we dip into caste for a bit. Secondly because they take less worker turns to put up.

We will have 4 specialist slots with a library and a market. That's about as many as we can expect to run in the foreseeable future, mainly because of the happy cap. On the other hand, I'm a little bit bummed about not really being able to use the merchant GPP from AA. Also, we will have major problems building the National Epic in DD because of the low production potential. With marble, OR and a forge it will take a staggering 17 turns. I'm starting to second guess myself, in terms of finding a new capital site and using AA as a GP farm. It will function fine as a capital until we get Civil Service, at which point we'll want a capital with heavy commerce and production. AA is also pretty good at producing wonders for additional GPP, it can easily reach 17 production.

2)I agree with IW first, we're in a hot and cold war with waterbat, lets at least have our scary UU on the board (we also need to find the iron).3) I wouldn't pink dot quite that far out it'll just be a bugger to defend, particularly with it's lack of cultural support from other cities of ours and waterbat's creativity. I do think concentrating on getting a marble and wines city as soon as possible should be a priority.

We have a 20t NAP now as posted above, albeit one that doesn't include a border agreement. We will be able to settle the pink dot on t59, giving us another 10t to reinforce it. While this is likely to provoke Waterbat, he won't be able to take the city until he gets catapults. Anyway, this looks like a typical cat vs cheetah debate and you know how I feel about risk taking This one is backed by a NAP and a strong military presence. I feel very strongly that this kind of play is our ace in the hole with Ragnar of Rome. Full-out war just won't gain us anything of significance, the territorial void will simply be swallowed by all neighbours eventually. Using Aggressive Praetorians to intimidate our rivals into accepting us having more than our fair share of the land is what we have going for us. I'd be fine with delaying Iron Working a bit further if I had certainty that it was within our borders, since it's not I'm strongly considering starting on it next turn after completing Hunting. Libraries can wait a little longer, I'll just get a monument in DD after the granary as I need the borders first and foremost.

Oh, and I am drafting plans to pink dot Xenon as well I want that coastal spot which gives access to the hidden islands something fierce. The only way to get access (and even visibility) on those islands is to settle that location. Now, if those commerce ocean tiles do not represent hidden islands then I'm screwed. In that case, I'll probably try to trade Xenon that city for a settler and a worker. My NAP and border agreement with Xenon both expire on t50, an axeman is underway to reinforce DD.

To get the MoM we may have to go calender before currency. Of course you are doing C and D so we should actually know if this is needed.

The tech part of my C&D is lagging behind a bit, it's not as easy to deduce research as I was hoping for. I do know that I was the first to get Sailing (or someone else got it the same turn).

I actually quite like the barracks in cheetah:neenernee. Grow on the barracks then two whip a worker when whip anger's gone?

With double speed barracks, I think we'll be able to more easily agree on getting them. The second promotion is worth a lot more than the first one, we need to prepare for that. And yeah, the cities need something to grow on.

I didn't look at the save so no bonus points for me

You get 4 catnips out of 5!

[Catwalk]

t49 report

Waterbat sent me the following proposal:
- CF
- 20t NAP
- OB
I countered with adding a no passage clause, and he accepted. This means that I am at no risk on my eastern border for the foreseeable future. Waterbat didn't include a border agreement, which triggers a settling race between us. I'm not sure if he is planning on using the NAP to settle up on me, but I'm willing to run the risk. I'm planning on settling the pink dot on t59, 10t from now. Considering he only has two expansions, I think chances are good that his third expansion won't be in my direction as well. And with a little luck he won't settle two cities in the next 10t. This is no certainty though, so I will need to prepare. Whether he manages to settle up on me or I manage to settle up on him, I want Praetorians soon. Given that I don't know where Iron is, I'd rather be safe than sorry. If it's within my borders I'll easily have Praetorians when I need them, if it's elsewhere I may need to adjust plans.

The pink circle indicates the natural settlement for Waterbat under assumption that I settle pink dot (= purple circle). The light green is an alternative in a weak location, and the blue one is the better fitting site. Should he settle the light green location I can move the blue site NW or 2N, or try to raze the pink circle.

As if that wasn't enough, I'm also going to pink dot Xenon on the purple circle shown above. As mentioned earlier, I think this will be easier to do in a limited diplo game as Waterbat and Xenon will have no means of comparing notes. They will only see my power rating and assume that I have plenty strength to defend myself, not knowing that I have to split it among two fronts. At least, they won't know until one of them declares. I'm hoping Xenon will take my peace treaty with Waterbat as an indication that I'm safe on that border. My NAP and border agreement with Xenon lasts until next turn, so I will have free hands to expand.

The reason why I want this site so badly is that at least 2 of the 4 green stars are land. I will be able to reach that island with second borders popped from the purple circle. If the bottom star is land I could also settle one of the next 3 blue FP tiles for second border access or the red circle for third border access. Exploring the red tile and the bottom blue tile will confirm whether there is land on the bottom green star. If so, I will probably refrain from the pink dot plans and play it safe with the red dot. Moreover, the pink dot site is not available on the other side of the coast so I hope the desert hill plant is possible. Grabbing both desert hills may also upset Xenon, but probably less than the original pink dot. There are two large oceans, one on each side of this desert arm. Either there are two separate island groups in each ocean or one big inter-connected island group in each. If it's one big group, I might be able to monopolize it.

Magellan's overland expedition is almost complete, with enough roads I'll get it in 2t!

Waterbat's GNP spike suggests he's researching a technology with high modifiers, most likely one with an optional prerequisite which many of us know. Writing fits the bill, except I know he has that one. I suppose AH is possible, but it'd surprise me greatly if he hadn't gone for that one yet. And I know Xenon either didn't research it or didn't bother pasturing the cows. Masonry is also an option, even though it doesn't have an optional prerequisite. I know from his lack of stone that he doesn't have it yet. Azza has stone, so I know that he has Masonry. Given Waterbat's seeming lack of interest in Pyramids, I'm going to bet on Azza landing them. That could make him my biggest rival, seeing as how Waterbat seems to be stunted at 3 cities. It seems like he has learned from his ultra-slow start in PBEM33. His failurs there probably motivates him to pursue success even more zealously her, same as my failures in PBEM25g and PBEM29g are spurring me on. I also suspect, based on his score, that he has more techs than me. I should have as many land points as him or more, and I have more pop too.

[Catwalk]

Summary of updated plans:
1) Settle up on Waterbat t59, settler produced t54 in BB.
2) Research Hunting this turn, IW in 5-6t, then most likely Writing => Mathematics => Calendar => Currency => Monarchy.
3) Explore the NW coast more closely in the next few turns, determine where to settle for island access.
4) If Iron is not within my borders, settle for it in a hurry. This will most likely delay settling up on Waterbat, but I hope to still be able to. Second settler will be shipped out from AA t56.
5) Produce a second settler in BB around t60 for island access.

[Catwalk]

Thinking it over some more, I'm feeling a little less enthused with the pink dot against Waterbat. IND is nerfed on this map, with every player having easy access to both stone and marble. And Waterbat has already slowed his growth down some, he's behind at this point. I don't need to slow him down at this point, and I feel I'm in a strong position that I should just keep snowballing. If I manage to settle the marble site and the tundra hill, I will have grabbed a little more than my share of the land on both the east and west borders. The pink dot against Xenon looks a lot more interesting, as it's about a specific objective rather than just getting in his face.

In more important news, we're about to pass Waterbat's post count!!