[90 Spoilers] Saxony's splendour and Miguelusten's glory

[Miguelito]

I want to go water- fort- fort- water. Tested it in SP, should be fine.

I genuinely have no idea what to do about Plemo. Maybe send diplo to Empirate to encourage him to do something? Contest the jungle island with triremes? The problem is that I have nothing on hand, and no production capacity. He also has nothing, but massive cities. And as I said naufragar's continued existence is a Damocles sword.
What's weird is that he has no Currency yet despite the GM 15 turns ago.

[AdrienIer]

You can only go to a fort with a boat if the fort is next to water. So yeah water fort fort water works.

[Hitru]

Is it such a big deal if you delay currency by one turn? It looks more important to secure best possible spot on that island as there might be resources available?

[Miguelito]

I genuinely have no idea what to do about Plemo. Maybe send diplo to Empirate to encourage him to do something? Contest the jungle island with triremes? The problem is that I have nothing on hand,  and no production capacity. He also has nothing, but massive cities.  And as I said naufragar's continued existence is a Damocles sword.
What's weird is that he has no Currency yet despite the GM 15 turns ago.

You got me thinking a bit more. If and how Plemo wins ultimately depends on his expansion opportunities. He has Empirate/GT with GK of Mongols to my naufragar. They are city count leaders at the moment. But GK of course will have problems long term against Asoka. Hopefully they're aware of that. I should send them some diplo to indicate that I'd join if they went in. GT hasn't logged in in a while. He is a mediocre civ manager but capable defender. Empirate is sort of the opposite? Ie good economy but sometimes tactic blunders.
It increasingly looks sensible to go for Machinery soon after MC/IW, in order to have opportunities. Can they negate that with Construction though? Plemo took OR so he has Masonry. Might also need to slot in Calendar, so don't get your hopes high for action soon.

Is it such a big deal if you delay currency by one turn? It looks more important to secure best possible spot on that island as there might be resources available?

Well, it should be 21 coins, so that's more than half of our current saving rate. I also don't think we're in a race there. From our coast we can't see any resources yet, and in particular no seafood. Without Fin, IW or Currency settling there is very unprofitable for Plemo (he can fix the techs of course, but doesn't seem to have done so yet). I can try to settle semi forward, although I don't have a lot of troops around. But I don't think that 3 or 4 turns for the first city there will make much of a difference, as it will be quite unproductive anyways for the while being.


Anbody want to comment on the naufragar musings, or wonder options?

[Amicalola]

Is it such a big deal if you delay currency by one turn? It looks more important to secure best possible spot on that island as there might be resources available?

Well, it should be 21 coins, so that's more than half of our current saving rate. I also don't think we're in a race there. From our coast we can't see any resources yet, and in particular no seafood. Without Fin, IW or Currency settling there is very unprofitable for Plemo (he can fix the techs of course, but doesn't seem to have done so yet). I can try to settle semi forward, although I don't have a lot of troops around. But I don't think that 3 or 4 turns for the first city there will make much of a difference, as it will be quite unproductive anyways for the while being.

This may be true, but Plemo might want to settle the city ASAP for 1) denial to you, and 2) prioritisation of long-term gain (extra cities in a pretty crowded map) for short-term cost (unprofitable city for a little while). I haven't read his thread, but that's how I would be thinking about it. It seems improbable that there would be no food on the island to me.

I am also on team Kill Plemo if at all possible.

[Miguelito]

This may be true, but Plemo might want to settle the city ASAP for 1) denial to you, and 2) prioritisation of long-term gain (extra cities in a pretty crowded map) for short-term cost (unprofitable city for a little while). I haven't read his thread, but that's how I would be thinking about it. It seems improbable that there would be no food on the island to me.

I am also on team Kill Plemo if at all possible.

I need to post a map. The island is large and neatly opposes both of our ports. There is no denying each other to settle without triremes, and we'll most likely end up sharing it (and there will also be 2 more parties further west). What we can do is try to get the bigger slice. Fast workers will be great on that island though

Killing Plemo on my own isn't a consideration probably until oil navies. Joining in with Empirate might be an option, and even then I have to take great care to not s
end up with cripple Plemo and die to naufragar.
Why do you want to see him dead so badly? Just to keep the game open? Does nobody want to talk about my naufragar analysis?

[Amicalola]

Killing Plemo on my own isn't a consideration probably until oil navies. Joining in with Empirate might be an option, and even then I have to take great care to not s
end up with cripple Plemo and die to naufragar.
Why do you want to see him dead so badly? Just to keep the game open? Does nobody want to talk about my naufragar analysis?

I intended to mean 'cripple Plemo' when I said Kill. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the answer would be that 'cripple Plemo' is still better than 'leave him alone,' because if Plemo is not crippled in some form, he is virtually guaranteed to win the game (and you are thus guaranteed not to). In other words, he is far enough ahead that to not cripple him is equivalent to throwing the game. That is with the info you've posted only though, and my impression is pretty vague - how overwhelmingly ahead would you say that Plemo is currently? 

Naufragar analysis is hard to talk about without spoilers, for me at least, because I am also reading his thread. In contrast to Germans, whose threads I am not reading.

[Miguelito]

Killing Plemo on my own isn't a consideration probably until oil navies. Joining in with Empirate might be an option, and even then I have to take great care to not s
end up with cripple Plemo and die to naufragar.
Why do you want to see him dead so badly? Just to keep the game open? Does nobody want to talk about my naufragar analysis?

I intended to mean 'cripple Plemo' when I said Kill. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the answer would be that 'cripple Plemo' is still better than 'leave him alone,' because if Plemo is not crippled in some form, he is virtually guaranteed to win the game (and you are thus guaranteed not to). In other words, he is far enough ahead that to not cripple him is equivalent to throwing the game. That is with the info you've posted only though, and my impression is pretty vague - how overwhelmingly ahead would you say that Plemo is currently? 

I have access to 3 of 7 Plemo cities. Without help from Empi the best case is burning those and fighting a long deathmatch against one the top 3 civ players that I know of. And again, I have no army and no whip capacity at this moment.
He has a huge tech advantage right now (but I'm not sure, what he's made of it, because he had no Currency nor MC and Christianity hasn't fallen either), but ultimately if I can conquer and he can't I outscale him. I will not fall a whole era behind him. So as always it depends on the neighbours.

Naufragar analysis is hard to talk about without spoilers, for me at least, because I am also reading his thread. In contrast to Germans, whose threads I am not reading.

I can understand that of course, but it skews the discussion, because naufragar for me is about expansion and long term survival, while Plemo is mostly about crippling the leader in an 18 players game, with dubious gains for myself.

[Hitru]

I agree that at this point you need to improve your own position as much as possible. If eating Nauf is best path towards that go for it.

21 gold does not sound that bad trade off for first pick of city spot if you are in race. If you are not in race then not that big deal

[Miguelito]

I did not send this, because it's probably both against the letter and the spirit of the rules:




Borderline perfect though.



instead this:




Let's just hope that they don't actually accept.



Plemo has a workboat scouting the jungle coast on our side, and a second galley coming through the canal.



And then there's this:




Just where do these folks get all the hammers? That is the equivalent of our entire workforce (including the worker that was whipped just last turn) and one more galley than what we have on the map. Those 3 galleys are pretty scary actually, but peace still runs for a while, and he accepted OB and fish/fish (actually accepted ), so I'll assume that he wants to focus on settling the jungle. Well let's just not make him angry I suppose.
No KTB on IW yet, and just 1 on MC, which I could confirm is civac/Hagen.