[PB70 Mjmd] STAND AS ONE!

[scooter]

Anyway, well-played game. I think you were in a winning position even pre-stab. At the time I thought you were definitely well ahead, and I learned quickly you were even further than I thought. Even if you had taken and fully honored my deal, you would have had Frigates at the end of the deal, and I would not have been close to them. I would have been incredibly hard-pressed to do anything about it. Or if you had countered harder, I would have settled for a split Charriu/Bing deal for sure, and I think you would have come out well-ahead on that as I would have slowed down quite a bit trying to get through his core. Not to mention it seems from reading diplo channels, pre-stab SD was leaning towards aligning with you over me. The Hanging Gardens play in particular was really something.

[Mjmd]

So your original offer to attack Charriu was at a point where I didn't feel I was anywhere near ready and wasn't sure if I even wanted to because I was still trying to figure out how the game would progress. When I reoffered after you threatened me I would have held to that agreement. I couldn't have done anything more than take some islands, but I would have held it because at least it was something. But you wanted it your way or you would burn my cities.

I'll be clear I didn't stab you because I thought it was a winning move. I did it because you threatened me and I was cat mad about it. I could have navigated a smarter back stab, but that wasn't what I was after. I thought and still think it was justified. After Commodore orchestrated a defensive pact to fool Pin in PB69 and no one seemed to care much. I'll have to admit to wondering where all the high and mighty people were in that case. I'll take all your word an NAP made unwillingly somehow ranks higher than a defensive pack made willingly in civ4 multiplayer and I'll keep that in mind for future, but I can't say it makes much sense to me.

To your point about not really meaning the threat and wanting to do other things, it doesn't much matter. You did threaten. I did try to move the conversation back to me attacking Charriu. You said no. After being threatened would it be smart of me to threaten back? or point out that you only have a short time window to use your threat? Of course not. Maybe it would work, but I wasn't feeling warm fuzzy feelings, so is a 20% chance of giving away information worth the 80% chance of you attacking me? No one would take those odds. And yes I assumed you were coming for me originally so had a plan in place. But I would have deviated that plan to Charriu if you had let me. Not because I particularly wanted to attack Charriu, but I would have kept a deal I got something out of my plan. Instead you threatened me into yours. To say my anger also may have been clouding any % chances of a counter threat working is probably fair to note here.

An invasion question I asked somewhere in my musings after the dog pile was if you and SD ever thought of coordinating. IE you drop off collateral and he provides the hitters. I purposefully tried steering SD away from Liverpool Judies because it had more room to maneuver / I could reinforce Roots easier, but unintended side effect was that 2-3 turns later when you dropped off your stack there wasn't as much to worry over.

Another question I've been wondering is if instead of going astro and invading Bing why you didn't just eco up. Go org religion much earlier ect. After my 2nd GA your demos were even with mine and you had room to grow and were ahead towards some other nice tech tree targets. You could have easily libbed nationalism for Taj for instance as well as get oxford up. I wasn't anywhere close to lib.

[Mjmd]

I had one more question for any of the people attacking me in relation to American nerf discussion. Did the American UU hill bonus ever matter in your decision to attack a spot? It always felt like I had enough in any case that it wouldn't have mattered although I admit to it giving me a slight boost of confidence. Edit: obviously I never used for hill double moving attacking, but I realize that is a major component.

[scooter]

When I reoffered after you threatened me I would have held to that agreement. I couldn't have done anything more than take some islands, but I would have held it because at least it was something.

The fundamental problem here is I don’t believe you. Even in your words after this you indicate that you think receiving a threat no matter how transparently half-hearted is inherent carte blanche for basically anything.

But you wanted it your way or you would burn my cities.

I also really can’t tell if you seriously think I was going to attack you or not. It was pretty widely known I was attacking Bing. People were warning him even before this. I’d have to check discord timestamps, but I think that even includes you.


Anyway.

An invasion question I asked somewhere in my musings after the dog pile was if you and SD ever thought of coordinating. IE you drop off collateral and he provides the hitters. I purposefully tried steering SD away from Liverpool Judies because it had more room to maneuver / I could reinforce Roots easier, but unintended side effect was that 2-3 turns later when you dropped off your stack there wasn't as much to worry over.

We definitely discussed it once or twice. The problem was my boats were always outmatched by yours, so I really could not advance on you at all. Moving forward was always going to mean dead boats. This is why I was so annoyed folks were not willing to dogpile you sooner when I might have been able to hang at sea.

Another question I've been wondering is if instead of going astro and invading Bing why you didn't just eco up. Go org religion much earlier ect. After my 2nd GA your demos were even with mine and you had room to grow and were ahead towards some other nice tech tree targets. You could have easily libbed nationalism for Taj for instance as well as get oxford up. I wasn't anywhere close to lib.

I don’t think this would have been enough to catch up. Remember you still got Astro like 40 turns before everyone else, plus you had better land units. Astro vs non-Astro on this map is an absolute joke and is basically a free win. You consumed Charriu in like a week. I think had I delayed Astro, you would have just got there first and run over the map. OR had I executed my play and you been unable to get there in time, I think I would have won the game off the play. Imagine you had been like 10T later to Astro? I think I would have conquered most of Bing by that point. I dunno, I’m happy with the call. I don’t think I could have reasonably predicted you’d do what you did.


Side note: this is part of why I was attributing so much of your power to ORG over America. Your early and cheap Courthouses gave you full tech vision on me (and even land vision it seems) which meant you knew what I was doing ages in advance. Had you been in the dark about that, I might have actually gotten to Astro 10T sooner.

[scooter]

I had one more question for any of the people attacking me in relation to American nerf discussion. Did the American UU hill bonus ever matter in your decision to attack a spot? It always felt like I had enough in any case that it wouldn't have mattered although I admit to it giving me a slight boost of confidence.

I certainly was not “attacking” you over this, as I did vote for dropping it from 2 -> 1, though I disagreed with you on how exactly OP it was. I think your question is better served for SD or Charriu though as I did very little actual combat vs them. They seem useful though which definitely puts America into top tier in CtH.

[Mjmd]

You can believe me or not, but I was going to keep that agreement. I was going to use the discord chat to emphasize to SD that I was only attacking Charriu because of you (and Charriu for that matter although not sure how much it would have mattered). Edit: I was also going to remind SD about you threatening him earlier.

I warned Bing after the fact, not before.

So the problem with me going astro first is I would have had to then use it. I knew I was ahead, but I didn't think I was that far ahead, and I was trying not to be dog piled, which I thought likely if people saw me going for Galleons first. I hadn't planned on going astro before I saw you headed that way. You'll see notes of me post 2nd GA pointing out your potential to SD for instance. I believed this. You were ahead in tech with some goodies ahead.

I mean org was good on this map, but America was also broken. Two things can be true at the same time. My thought to move the lighthouse bonus actually came from this game. It helped out a ton. But yes I chose arguably the best leader with the best civ and did a great HG (which has been a goal of mine forever).

[Mjmd]

Oh and I only consumed Charriu so fast because of SD help. If I hadn't employed him as a mercenary I would have only taken the two island cities you ended up taking likely.

[Charriu]

I had one more question for any of the people attacking me in relation to American nerf discussion. Did the American UU hill bonus ever matter in your decision to attack a spot? It always felt like I had enough in any case that it wouldn't have mattered although I admit to it giving me a slight boost of confidence. Edit: obviously I never used for hill double moving attacking, but I realize that is a major component.

I basically only had two cities I could attack. The one (on a hill) that I moved to and the other WhereToGoJohnny (also on a hill). WhereToGoJohnny had a massive culture output making any attack suicidal in nature so the decision here was easy. Because both cities were on a hill the American UU didn't matter for the decision. Still though it made defending those cities a lot easier for you as I needed more troops. I would say the American UU certainly helped in the dogpile situation. That's why bringing back the Navy Seal is not a bad idea as a nerf.

[scooter]

So the problem with me going astro first is I would have had to then use it. I knew I was ahead, but I didn't think I was that far ahead, and I was trying not to be dog piled, which I thought likely if people saw me going for Galleons first. I hadn't planned on going astro before I saw you headed that way. You'll see notes of me post 2nd GA pointing out your potential to SD for instance. I believed this. You were ahead in tech with some goodies ahead.

FWIW, I think had I not had my horrid prophet/shrine luck, I might have pushed harder down the eco path. I really was committing pretty hard to the monk route. In fact, failing to get a prophet on multiple occasions directly resulted in me channeling the great person I did get into the Astro plan, so yeah, that probably had an impact.

But overall, I had a mid-game leader/civ. PHI is a mid-game trait that falls off late game as you hit diminishing GPP returns. IND gets you wonders early and Forges to power your mid-game, then falls off hard. China is early (techs) and mid (CKN), but again goes null in the later game. I had to get ahead of you, or I was in trouble, especially since you were next to the softest neighbor. For you, ORG was going to scale great into the late-game by giving you huge maintenance discounts and Factories. Basically my entire combo has a big power spike that trails off, so I needed to make hay. Go peep my war plans - Bing was absolutely toast had it gone through. CKNs off Galleons are horrifying.

Unless of course the opponent has a backdoor first strike and better-promoted Galleons, then Privateers/Frigates first.

But also, I think the right choice from you would have been to get Astro. I think I accidentally pushed you into the right choice. But the fact that you could just casually pivot to match me while doing everything else is the evidence that you were much further ahead than you think. Even when we conceded, SD and Bing were nowhere near Astro, let alone Destroyers. Astro would have taken me like 25-30T break-even to tech at the time where you did it in like 5 turns.

I mean org was good on this map, but America was also broken. Two things can be true at the same time. My thought to move the lighthouse bonus actually came from this game. It helped out a ton. But yes I chose arguably the best leader with the best civ and did a great HG (which has been a goal of mine forever).

Interestingly I thought CRE was your one weakness early in the game, as it seemed like a quite bad map for CRE. However, it grew on me as it enabled the Libraries so easily which I think made it easier for you to tech into the mid-game. So yeah, you probably had the best leader in this game after all. It definitely sold me on Zara in CtH.

[scooter]

Oh and I only consumed Charriu so fast because of SD help. If I hadn't employed him as a mercenary I would have only taken the two island cities you ended up taking likely.

I seriously doubt this. Your power absolutely dwarfed his, and Bing was always going to join in. Your boats could have forked a million cities at once while your Frigates bombed defenses and force him to pick his poison. I’m sure it would have been a little slower, but I don’t see how he could have possibly defended. SD just sped things up a bit.