[spoiler!] Ruffing Bull of Spain

[Ruff_Hi]

I've been looking at my tech rate (break even at about 63%) and it would take me 10 turns to finish Const, Econ and Corporation (at 70%, deficit funding from captured city gold). And that is without finishing Railroads (5 turns). Thus it is no faster to Mining Inc waiting the 10 turns for the anti-EP mission to wear off than it is to tech it myself.

So ... I shall steal those three techs from Isk (Const, Econ and Corp) ... that is 7000 beakers ... or 5880 EPs (7000 x 1.5 x floor[1.32 x 0.86 x 0.5 to 2 decimal places]). I currently have 5086 with +58 per turn ... 5666 ... so I need a very small injection of EP to grab those 3 techs ... and about a dozen spies to make sure that I can actually pull it off.

[Ruff_Hi]

Now that that is discussed ... one of my current fears in this game is that Isk steals Railroads from me and he incorporates Mining Inc. Ignoring RR, he has the tech for it ... so how to I tech such that he doesn't get a chance to steal it and incorprate MInc before I can? I don't think that I can actually do it. Best I can do is leave him 1 turn when it is open ... and run an Anti-EP mission against him.

BTW - explain this ...



Why does it say 'add 200%' and then only comes up with +100%?

[Ruff_Hi]

I think that's right, or at most you might be off by one turn either way.

hmm - that doesn't seem that certain. I will run a hotseat test.

[NobleHelium]

You could just not finish teching Railroad until you get Corporation one way or another.

[Ruff_Hi]

Do you mean an active counterespionage mission? If so, there's a trick there. Counterespionage wears off at the end of that player's turn, and can't be renewed either while it is active or until that player's next turn. The upshot is that every 10 turns, you have a window to steal without counterespionage in force.

I am not sure if that is correct ... I just ran a hotseat game and this is what I found ...

In each picture, the EP info on the left is from the player playing first in the turn set.

T12 (both teams run counter-espionage missions)


T21 ... 10 turns later (21 - 12 + 1)


T22 (I didn't run another counter-espionage mission)


According to T-Hawk's comment, the Mongols (the 2nd player) should have had a counter-espionage free turn on T21.

This is hotseat and some game dynamics are different across the game styles. I will run a pbem (quick speed) version tomorrow if I can find the time.

[Ruff_Hi]

You could just not finish teching Railroad until you get Corporation one way or another.

The issue is that Isk could have all the techs to incorporate Mining Inc and will have a 1 turn opportunity to found it if he steals RailRoads on the turn that I finish it ... I have it at the end of my turn so he can steal it, but I cannot act on any of the new goodies (Mining Inc) until it is my go again.

[T-hawk]

The issue is that Isk could have all the techs to incorporate Mining Inc and will have a 1 turn opportunity to found it if he steals RailRoads on the turn that I finish it ... I have it at the end of my turn so he can steal it, but I cannot act on any of the new goodies (Mining Inc) until it is my go again.

That is indeed a problem. A theoretical way around is to lightbulb Railroad, then you do have the tech finished during the turn rather than at the end.

Why does it say 'add 200%' and then only comes up with +100%?

Yeah, that's not well written. It really *makes* the cost 200% of usual (double), it doesn't add 200% (triple).

I am not sure if that is correct ... I just ran a hotseat game and this is what I found ...

My window as originally described was from single player against AIs. It could easily behave differently in multiplayer and across MP game types. Player order also might play a role: it could be possible that only the earlier player in turn order gets the window, if the counterespionage time counter decrements at the overall turn rollover (when barb units act and the game year advances) rather than when any particular player ends turn. I'm away from my Civ computer right now, can look at the code in a day or two.

[Ruff_Hi]

My window as originally described was from single player against AIs. It could easily behave differently in multiplayer and across MP game types. Player order also might play a role: it could be possible that only the earlier player in turn order gets the window

I repeated the above using a pbem set up and got exactly the same results ... no counter-espionage mission 'hole' at the end of the x turns. The above pics show the results for player #1 (left) and player #2 (right) so play order didn't come into it either.

As such, I think it is possible in pbem games to have active counter-espionage on all the time.

[Ruff_Hi]

That is indeed a problem. A theoretical way around is to lightbulb Railroad, then you do have the tech finished during the turn rather than at the end.

That is an option - I shall see if I have any GPs that can lightbulb part of RailRoads.

Edit: I have a GE that will put 1500 beakers into RRs ... the only draw back ... he is the GE I need for Mining Inc. I will have to give this some thought.

The other option I thought of was to increase the opportunity cost to Isk by not completing RR until he had invested a sizable chunk of beakers into it ... that way, if he did want to steal it in the 1 turn window I have to give him, he'll have to 'waste' those invested beakers.

[NobleHelium]

You know for sure he has a GE?