ScooberStrike Debrief
So, if you're following, you know that the ScooberStrike was successful, despite my best efforts to the contrary. Our swordsman even takes out a Khmer horse archer at 50% odds on Lewwyn's counter-attack (this was why I didn't delete it; figured worth taking the 50% chance). So that's great!
Overall combat results (including Lewwyn's turn; our unit is always first and % = our chance to win):
War Elephant vs Ballista Elephant (11.5%) - LOSS, 36/100 HP
War Elephant vs Archer (59.2%) - WIN, 62/100 HP
Swordsman vs Archer (43.2%) - WIN, 20/100 HP
Swordsman vs Ballista Elephant (97.7%) - WIN, 100/100 HP
CITY RAZED; Lewwyn's counter-turn:
Swordsman vs Horse Archer (50%) - WIN, 20/100 HP
Swordsman vs Horse Archer (0%) - LOSS, 100/100 HP
So we got pretty lucky. Very lucky really. We didn't need to get combat results THIS good, with 2 spare (non-siege) units on the ships to clean up, but I'm still very pleased with this result. We had about an 80% chance to win with the units on hand, which is why I decided to go for the fight. My earlier tilt was an obvious overreaction in hindsight, at my own lack of knowledge. Lurkers may have noticed I am prone to this. I'm trying to work on it, promise. But the end result of this was always likely to be alright.
Overall hammer trade on units was 100 hammers (us) vs 160 hammers (them). We lost 1 war elephant and 1 swordsman, while they lost 1 BE, 2 archers, and a horse archer. Not to mention we razed a size 8 city working horse, clams, incense, and a bunch of financial coast. Finally, we made 160 Gold, or about a turn of 0% research. So a pretty good haul!
This was a great first blood. It feels really nice to have finally done something neat militarily, even if it's actually quite a small thing.
The Next Target
The next thing to figure out is the Maoi attack! The city is called Muckspout, and is really strong. Taking any recommendations for names. The garrison at this city is now very large, and the battle will make ScooberStrike look like peanuts. Here is a photo of the current garrison:
As I said a while ago, I would expect this to grow over the next 5 turns, not to mention maybe 2-3 whips during the siege. There will probably be 2 waves of 5 Galleys, 10 Units each. Then we will strike. I think we will lose a lot of units here; hopefully, Lewwyn will lose more! Currently, I think the first wave will be 3-4 WE's, 4 Catapults, 1 Swordsman (combat 2) and 1 Spear. Thoughts? I could swap the swordsman out for something if you think he's misplaced there. It might also be worth actually making 6 galleys for the attack, since I'm not sure how we land the first 10 units without them being slaughtered. The plains outside the walls are going to be a nightmare.
Other News
Well, we got Metal Casting. I switched a few cities to forges (most have switched back to units now though). Thanks for catching this Mjmd, as I had meant to ask and forgotten about it. Very classic singleplayer move, there. The only city still making a forge is Aperol Spritz, which has an 11 food surplus and I want a lot of supercharged whips to come out of there ASAP. Otherwise we are generally back to making units in all but the most recently settled cities. For tech path right now, I am thinking Monarchy -> Machinery -> Engineering. I am happy to cut out Monarchy though if you think?
Oh! We also got our shrine last turn, worth 20GPT (25 with our market). Not actually as much as I was hoping, as there are basically zero buddhist cities out in the fog. Still, very nice. We also need to discuss whether we should be saving the GA for peace-time, or gunning towards it right now. Thoughts?
I don't know the game situation well enough, but at the point your throwing 20 units at an island could you throw 21 units instead at his mainland (build another unit instead of galley). If you are going for the island make sure to throw a couple of axes over swords in 1st wave. I would probably do just 2 cats. Again don't worry about amount your bombarding. I would just want to make sure he can't counter attack the 1st wave with what he has. So include 2 total spears as well and hopefully they soak the balastiphants instead of your own phants.
Obviously delaying the golden age has a couple advantages (switch into civacs and have time for pop to recover from whipping). However, popping it sooner might help with war effort, which is relevant.
Congrats on the successful strike , glad we can just laugh at the catapult episode!
Like Mjmd I'm a bit hesitant regarding the effort it takes to land on that island (also what do we do if his army shows up on the mainland?), otoh it is a thorn in our side. Either way, a trireme or two might be needed? Do take swords with you if you have them, maybe on the second load, but they are best at attacking cities which is what you want to do right?
I'd time the GA roughly so we end it with vassalage. OR doesn't seem as important right now as we should be building units in most places anyways. Do we need the religion happy? The Daicquiri shot (awesome btw ) shows a lot of happy faces already (ok part is due to the market). If the happy cap is so far away everywhere that might mean you're not whipping enough
I think you guys have convinced me to head straight for Bobolyne on the mainland instead of messing with Muckspout. You're at least right that mainland is worth considering. One nice thing is that all the units on that island (which is a lot now! 2BE's, 2 catas, 5 metal units) is by definition not going to be in Bobolyne. Combine that with SD hopefully tying down some forces, and I think we'll have the numbers advantage. Or at least pretty equal. Going to whip and chop the civ a bit more to make sure of that though. You might be right that I haven't been whipping enough.
I'm thinking I'll delay the GA a little bit. I'm not sure we need it to conquer Lewwyn, who seems pretty checked out. He's still got a shitload of power, but he might not use it very well. Then again, there's probably just as good a chance that I don't use mine well. Overall though, I think the GA will be better to build a crapload of infra after the war (whenever/however it ends) rather than build units. Especially with OR.
Vassalage is a really interesting idea. Maybe I should have gone towards Feudalism instead of Engineering. Maybe I will switch now. That would be a good reason to GA ASAP instead. I'll have to mull it over.
Worth noting that it's very possible none of this matters: Civac had 600(!!!) GNP last turn at 100%. He was in a GA but still crazy. Gavagai might not be able to fight him. If we can take Lewwyn out fast enough to turn and 2v1 Civac that might work, but otherwise Civac probably wins. Peace with Lewwyn to turn around feels like a very poor option for us, but staying at war with Lewwyn feels like a great way to hand Civac the game. It's a bit of a dilemma. Also, I'm not sure they wouldn't just backstab us right back in 10 turns. I'd be mad if I were them.
I posted this in my 56 thread earlier but forgot you can't read that; I can't take screenshots for about the next 5 days or so. Should coincide pretty nicely with when we move in though, actually. Anyway, reporting will be subpar at best until then.
(December 15th, 2020, 01:54)Amicalola Wrote: I think you guys have convinced me to head straight for Bobolyne on the mainland instead of messing with Muckspout. You're at least right that mainland is worth considering. One nice thing is that all the units on that island (which is a lot now! 2BE's, 2 catas, 5 metal units) is by definition not going to be in Bobolyne. Combine that with SD hopefully tying down some forces, and I think we'll have the numbers advantage. Or at least pretty equal. Going to whip and chop the civ a bit more to make sure of that though. You might be right that I haven't been whipping enough.
Did you ever take your horse back for a couple of sentry chariots? If he has that much on an island I imagine he more on the mainland. Not sure how large your force is. Mind you get to move in with it all at once instead of 2 waves.
There is definitely a reason you want to front load whipping and chopping in a war. Defender not only has an advantage as far as getting to hit with cats first, but also has the shorter supply lines. I know you were late to construction, but that was a reason for more whips not less. A good learning lesson. You now might be stuck in a classic cat phant stack stand off. In which case maybe going for island is correct. Then take peace and build forges / launch a golden age. If that is the plan then you don't HAVE to whip more, but your assuming things and stuff. Obviously taking over Lewwyn is probably the most winning line forward, but I have no clue what forces on the ground look like.
As far as 2v1 Civac. I would say if 2v1 vs a weaker opponent isn't working what makes you think 2v1 Civac would work? Civac is probably close to jumping to knights as well given how far he was away from us originally in tech. Plus you have open borders with Civac, so would be hard to backstab.
(December 15th, 2020, 01:54)Amicalola Wrote: I think you guys have convinced me to head straight for Bobolyne on the mainland instead of messing with Muckspout. You're at least right that mainland is worth considering. One nice thing is that all the units on that island (which is a lot now! 2BE's, 2 catas, 5 metal units) is by definition not going to be in Bobolyne. Combine that with SD hopefully tying down some forces, and I think we'll have the numbers advantage. Or at least pretty equal. Going to whip and chop the civ a bit more to make sure of that though. You might be right that I haven't been whipping enough.
Did you ever take your horse back for a couple of sentry chariots? If he has that much on an island I imagine he more on the mainland. Not sure how large your force is. Mind you get to move in with it all at once instead of 2 waves.
There is definitely a reason you want to front load whipping and chopping in a war. Defender not only has an advantage as far as getting to hit with cats first, but also has the shorter supply lines. I know you were late to construction, but that was a reason for more whips not less. A good learning lesson. You now might be stuck in a classic cat phant stack stand off. In which case maybe going for island is correct. Then take peace and build forges / launch a golden age. If that is the plan then you don't HAVE to whip more, but your assuming things and stuff. Obviously taking over Lewwyn is probably the most winning line forward, but I have no clue what forces on the ground look like.
As far as 2v1 Civac. I would say if 2v1 vs a weaker opponent isn't working what makes you think 2v1 Civac would work? Civac is probably close to jumping to knights as well given how far he was away from us originally in tech. Plus you have open borders with Civac, so would be hard to backstab.
Yeah, I've definitely learnt that I need to whip more for future wars. 'Go Big Or Go Home' feels like a pretty good motto, considering that a stalemated war is really just a lost one.
I had actually planned on taking the horse back next turn for 3 turns to make 3 sentry chariots. I think that would be enough. Yeah, the more I think about it the more I worry that we couldn't even fight Lewwyn, so maybe we should be sending our units elsewhere (i.e. to stop Civac running away with the game, and join Gavagai). Alternatively we could attack Jowy and his hilariously low power, but he could whip out some monster longbows with that NA + PRO combo.
But actually, you're 100% right. If we can't fight a 2v1 against Lewwyn, or at least are struggling to advance right now; how could we against Civac? He's stronger and further ahead in tech. The Roman border is currently undefended and we could maybe take 3-4 small cities, but then he'd send his French units back over towards us and Crush Us Mercilessly.
Maybe a peace with Lewwyn (if he'll sign; not a guarantee at all) and teching up might be best until we can join someone against Civac? I think any threat of Lewwyn winning the game is probably over. The other problem with turning on Civac is that I've had a fish-for-fish with him for something like 100 turns. I'd feel really bad attacking with that going, so I'd want to cancel it at least a few turns beforehand. At the same time, then he'd know. So even best case scenario re: damage dealt, I'd be a backstabbing jerk, which I really don't love.
I'm still not quite sure how Civac got so much land and so far ahead. Stonehenge certainly helped, but can't have been the only thing. Was IMP just that good? We have each settled about half the territory between us, with me getting some 2nd ring cities and him getting some. We even got that floodplains pink dot from way back that I think was meant to be his (and that city has actually become really good, so I'm glad we did). Maybe he got favourable settling against others? Or maybe he got some islands intended for me.
I'm still having a lot of fun with this game, but I do think Civac is starting to run away with it. That GNP number was a big wake-up call from my high after that city raze. Hopefully Gavagai will do more damage than I'm expecting?
(December 15th, 2020, 05:12)Amicalola Wrote: Yeah, I've definitely learnt that I need to whip more for future wars. 'Go Big Or Go Home' feels like a pretty good motto, considering that a stalemated war is really just a lost one.
I'm still not quite sure how Civac got so much land and so far ahead. Stonehenge certainly helped, but can't have been the only thing. Was IMP just that good? We have each settled about half the territory between us, with me getting some 2nd ring cities and him getting some. We even got that floodplains pink dot from way back that I think was meant to be his (and that city has actually become really good, so I'm glad we did). Maybe he got favourable settling against others? Or maybe he got some islands intended for me.
Learning and stuff occurring is all for the good.
If you didn't have open borders with Civac I think there would be a lot more argument there. How many of Jowy's border cities are on hills? Still your talking 5-6 turn walking down there and again open borders. Open borders cuts both ways! Fyi I wouldn't consider fish for fish to be binding after that long.
To address the second point of how Civac got so far ahead I've stated my theory before. I believe it was due to early circumnavigation with this CtH version, which led to early currency, which led him to being able to plop down 20 cities via being imperialistic. Look at your T108 demo screenshot. Your 2nd!!! in land and its close at that. But you only have 14 cities vs Civac who has 20 (and you couldn't afford more). You had dotmapped another 8!!!! cities, which would have put you to 22! If you know the game stopped after expansion phase. Civ4 is a snowball game. He got to put down 6 extra cities much much much sooner that started contributing then sooner and then got to roll over a weakened neighbor, which neighbor luck is a big part of things as well. Due to the war you still haven't been able to fully back fill (correctly), but still it all adds up.
Again very glad circumnav is being moved to optics; still would be ok ditching it entirely. The + trade routes thing incentivizes rapid expansion which civ4 already does. I don't really see why it is a needed to have anything for it. Certainly I think pre optics trade routes may have been a bit , but lord knows I didn't fully think about it when Charriu made the change so I don't blame him.
Quote:The other problem with turning on Civac is that I've had a fish-for-fish with him for something like 100 turns. I'd feel really bad attacking with that going
100 turns? Come on, those fish are stinking by now
Seriously, I wouldn't trust a 20 turn old fish alliance to be worth anything, much less 100. Those are a signal of how you feel at a given moment imo. Another reason not to actually take those deals, just cancel and re-send (don't know if it was civac who took it in this case). The other (main one) is not to let other players see it on F4.
Ok, so it sounds like my fish worry is silly and that's good! Thanks for these tips. I actually usually cancel and resend, yeah, but maybe Civac didn't know that was a thing when he accepted it?
Probably right re: Circumnavigation. That was definitely huge. I also realised Civac popped a silver at his capital sometime around T50-75, in addition to his intended gold, which no doubt helped a lot.
IMPORTANT NEWS: Lewwyn offered us a peace treaty, so I guess it is now or never to decide which direction we would like to go in. We can either say no and keep fighting him (probably to a stalemate), say yes and turn on Civac (not sure how long we could fight before his army arrived), or say yes and tech up peacefully again. What are you guys thoughts? I'm torn mostly between Peace and tech, or war and grind, but I can see merit to turning on Civac so I added that option too.
Lewwyn will probably take peace at any point that he hasn't crushed your army (and maybe even then), so don't feel too much pressure. I've stated my thoughts on attacking Civac or even Jowy. You know the situation in game better though. How is the tile 1W of fish looking culture wise? Just in case you want to attack the maoi city after 10 turns!
My only additional thoughts is that giving him peace might make him commit to attacking SD and pulling troops from your border. I doubt it, but maybe. Also, see if you extract like 100g (or more) from him if you are going to take peace. You can always resend next turn.
The garrison at this city is now very large, and the battle will make ScooberStrike look like peanuts. Here is a photo of the current garrison:
I'm trying to work on it, promise. But the end result of this was always likely to be alright. 
) shows a lot of happy faces already (ok part is due to the market). If the happy cap is so far away everywhere that might mean you're not whipping enough 
, but lord knows I didn't fully think about it when Charriu made the change so I don't blame him.
