One disadvantage of Hunt/Mine is that we're unable to work our strongest tile after growing to size two, the lake whale. We have a ton more worker turns though, and easily spit out early settlers (24 and 34, with IMP (building mines while waiting for AH to complete). Starting with Mine/Fish plays out more or less like Hunt/Fish, we have 2 wasted worker turns instead of 3 (as BW finishes a turn early), and the timings end up more or less the same.
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[PB58] Tarkeel and Amicalola's rule through fear
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Viccy was more what I would expect to be picked early, and Julius wasn't really a surprise, even if he was my favorite pick. We can now get first pick on a civ and last pick on a leader, or middle of the pack on both. I still think it's best to have first pick of civ; even if Roosevelt and Darius get picked as the next two we have Mehmed or Napoleon as backup.
If we pick a hunting/mining civ we'll have a slightly faster start with up to 3 less wasted worker turns compared to mining or hunting paired with fishing. Starting with fishing means that FIN is more attractive as a trait from the start though, now that Julius is taken. The civs I have my eyes on are:
I think our main options is picking Vikings now and see what leader remains for us, or pick Darius now and Germany on the return. Final thoughts?
December 22nd, 2020, 15:31
(This post was last modified: December 22nd, 2020, 20:26 by Amicalola.)
Trend towards Darius/Germany because I have an insatiable love of late game UBs, plus the techs are best, plusCharriu surely wants to test them in a real game. But I like the freshness of Vikings too, so I’m not sad either way. Khmer are strong too, probably objectively the best of least interesting. If we do Darius of Germany, we should pick Darius first for sure. Up to you ultimately though!
Edit: Lewwyn did you end up having time to do any sims? (December 22nd, 2020, 15:39)mackoti Wrote: I see you didnt considered Zara which is very strong. I'm actually a big fan of CRE, but I think it loses some of its value on a larger map, but he might be a better pick than Mehmed at least. As I see it the main benefit is the freedom to place cities more optimally and not be constrained by early food access. Tempted to just pick Darius and see what civs are still available, but I'd like to give Lewwyn a chance to chime in. (December 22nd, 2020, 15:31)Amicalola Wrote: Trend towards Darius/Germany because I have an insatiable love of late game UBs, plus the techs are best, plusCharriu surely wants to test them in a real game. But I like the freshness of Vikings too, so I’m not sad either way. Khmer are strong too, probably objectively the best of least interesting. Up to you ultimately though! 
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So I still favor the Hunt/Mine start because I think it's more optimal and stronger. I like Ballista Elephants a lot and probably favor Khmer over Germany; I worry the game will be over before we get to factories. Khmer get's picked often because its the best Hunt/mining civ.
I'm also on board with a Rome pick: BW>Hunting opening, delay deer, Chop 2nd worker, build mine, camp work whales, MAYBE take an IMP civ and go superfast settlers. And I like Rome over Carthage... But I think Carthage can be good too. And I don't think EXP/Pro is 100% necessary. Khmer, Rome, or Carthage. And yes I think take a civ first over leader. We are leader flexible particularly since it's unclear how many people want ORG civs. (IMO few)
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
Also I'll just say it's advisable to pick a strong civ even if you feel like it is often picked. You don't want to get 100 turns into a game and then feel like you have less of a chance of winning. The time investment is huge and if you want to play a game with less picked leaders the best thing to do is get a bunch of people and have a selected civ pool or something like that to give different civs and different leaders some love without sacrificing balance. We've done this a lot previously in the past. For this game, we should give ourselves the best chance to win since our opponents will be doing the same. FWIW, Khmer was not as popular in the past as it is now with cth. Rome has always been popular, Carthage has also had sustained popularity.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
Even Darius of the Vikings wastes two worker turns working commerce tiles over the deer, so I agree that we need a hunt/mine civ. While it would be fun to test Germany, I've come to agree that Khmer is probably the better choice. It's sad how the start skews us to only one viable starting tech combo, I think having the whales inner ring would help.
(December 23rd, 2020, 02:41)Tarkeel Wrote: Even Darius of the Vikings wastes two worker turns working commerce tiles over the deer, so I agree that we need a hunt/mine civ. While it would be fun to test Germany, I've come to agree that Khmer is probably the better choice. It's sad how the start skews us to only one viable starting tech combo, I think having the whales inner ring would help. Yeah sometimes we get stuck with a more narrow range of optimal viability. Still think Khmer is a good pick. I too would rather have variety, but I do think its the best pick of the Hunt/mine civs. So leader.... Darius is very much on the table. Zara I think is a good consideration. I might have preferred Julius Ceasar, but my arch enemy Jowy grabbed him already. Mehmed with cheap granary and baray is an option, though I think EXP is a bit weaker IMO. I think what's really nice about picking leader last though is that we get to see if anyone else picks an IND leader and we could seal being the only IND leader in the game with Roosevelt. So I think that's a possibility.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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