A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Serdoa]

I see I caused a little bit of a reaction there.

I will not include this workboat change, because of things you brought up.

I would be ready to build a new version by now. I think I will leave the Greece UU change out for now in hopes that someone will play them, so that I can see their unit in effect.

Well, if you propose and play in a small game that can be played "on the side" I'm willing to play Greece with an AGG or CHA leader (I think you wanted to change those two as well? If not, whatever leader needs testing.)

[Amicalola]

I like the proposed phalanx change a lot. Greece is never picked right now, and I agree 100% with Gaspar that it is better to buff weak options than nerf strong ones, as that makes the game far more interesting. With the new UU, Greece becomes far more unique and at least gets a niche, and compensation if someone ever has to pick it in a large game.

[superdeath]

Thoughts on giving the Cataphract a -% vs pikes?

[Charriu]

I see I caused a little bit of a reaction there.

I will not include this workboat change, because of things you brought up.

I would be ready to build a new version by now. I think I will leave the Greece UU change out for now in hopes that someone will play them, so that I can see their unit in effect.

Well, if you propose and play in a small game that can be played "on the side" I'm willing to play Greece with an AGG or CHA leader (I think you wanted to change those two as well? If not, whatever leader needs testing.)

I don't want to force anybody playing something they don't like or want to play, but for those that want to play civs and traits rarely used I collected some statistics here.

Thoughts on giving the Cataphract a -% vs pikes?

We've discussed the Cataphract at length on the previous pages. I people rightfully argued that Byzantium is already nerfed by their starting techs and UBs. I proposed my change to the war elephant, which would have given a soft counter towards the Cataphract. This change would provide a hard counter towards the cataphract. If I do that change I would most likely increase the mounted bonus on the pike instead of decreasing the cataphract, for the simple reason that this also provides a hard counter towards the cuirassier, which is in just the same position as the cataphract as their hard counter (rifleman) appears later. I'm interested to here about opinions by others:

1. What do you think about SD's change request?
2. What about increasing the vs mounted bonus of the pike?
3. How do you compare cuirassier towards cataphract?

[civac2]

I don't like it. Cuirassiers should do well vs pikes. They are much higher tech and rely on a short window of opportunity. If they don't have a window of being stronger than opposing units in the field you may as well remove them from the game. Pikes still are decent vs them anyway.

You could give catapracts 11 strength but have them start with Combat 1. This would make them weaker in defense but similar in offense. A single pike would be favored attacking a single cataphract with comparable promotions. For instance a, pike (C2) has odds vs a cataphract (11 base strength, C2, shock).

[mackoti]

I don't like it. Cuirassiers should do well vs pikes. They are much higher tech and rely on a short window of opportunity. If they don't have a window of being stronger than opposing units in the field you may as well remove them from the game. Pikes still are decent vs them anyway.

You could give catapracts 11 strength but have them start with Combat 1. This would make them weaker in defense but similar in offense. A single pike would be favored attacking a single cataphract with comparable promotions. For instance a, pike (C2) has odds vs a cataphract (11 base strength, C2, shock).

I think 11 strenght and combat1 is stronger then strenght 12, very easy to get amphiboius on them or formation.I would go and I realy think is enough with strenght 11 and flanking .

[civac2]

Yeah, them getting formation easily would be an issue. But as I said they are weaker when getting attacked by pikes or elephants that way.

The other fix I have seen mentioned is leave their combat stats as they are but increase cost a bit.

[chumchu]

11+ combat makes cataphracts stronger on offense vs. pikes on low promotion levels.

With 0 promotions on both units as it goes from 5/5 hits to 5/6 to eliminate for 63% vs. 50% now.
With 1 promotions they are also stronger as they get access to shock for 67% vs. 65% now
with 2 promotion it is similar 69.5% both then and now.
With 3 promotions they will have 67.1% vs. 67.5% now

If you want a slight nerf to cataphracts I would suggest increasing their cost by 10 so that they are more expensive than their weaker counterpart like praetorians.

[civac2]

Only the 0 promotion scenario makes any real difference. The defending player can build barracks and/or switch to Vassalage to play around it. I don't think this argument has any strength whatsoever. mackoti's point that C1 catapracts can get formation easier does make a difference though.

[Mjmd]

If you want a slight nerf to cataphracts I would suggest increasing their cost by 10 so that they are more expensive than their weaker counterpart like praetorians.

I would prefer either this probably. It is a simple solution that has precedent without changing a whole bunch else and still rewards horrible starting techs / all your opponents knowing what you're up to. 2nd is just strength 11, but I don't think they would get picked then.

BTW if it wasn't for the change log / issues with changing starting techs I would 100% be up for making Arabia have fishing instead of wheel. Give it the option to do the religious thing easier which fits its UB.