[SPOILERS] Scooticator and Pindooter give a sporting try

[scooter]

But you were talking about using the 2 axes we have now, which means 9 turns minimum. (The 7 turns you give is misleading; that axe needs to kill the barbarian warrior otherwise we lose our Rice. That city won't grow to size 2 and it won't expand it's borders in that time. Look at it: no first-ring food. 11 turns to grow minimum. At least that long to pop borders. So I stand by my statement - trying to take it now is a bad idea.

We can move the archer from Orioles up towards Red Wings to cover the barb and play zone defense. And no first ring food doesn't sting so bad when you have a 2/2 tile to work in the first ring.

And if we send the axes then we have an undefended Bulldogs. So the next unit built needs to cover that.
We have no axe to send to the Gems city so that city will have to be delayed until another unit can cover that settler.
And then we're counting on there being no barbarians we can't handle with our garrison units.

We're going to need another axe soon anyway. But generally I'm okay with rolling the dice a bit. We probably don't have that long of a window until he properly defends that city.

On top of that, you say it's exposed for him? It's just as exposed for us. We'd have to commit more military to either killing him, repelling his attempts to take it, and that's on top of the barbarian problems before. I mean, we're settling in a straight line perpendicular to Commodore as a northern neighbor. If that doesn't ring alarm bells as this being a bad idea then nothing will.

Now this is definitely not true - it's wayyyy more exposed for him. We have a city, roads, workers, and 2 axes nearby. He has one axe in his entire empire and 5-6ish non-cultured tiles between the cities.

If you really want to take that city so bad, then let's do it right. Continue to develop, focus more on military in the next 10 - 20 turns. Forget circumnavigation and use the nav-1 galley (or galleys) for an amphibious assault. Hit him in 1 turn out of the fog before he even knows it's coming. You can stage galley(s) 1W of the rice tile and he won't see them.

This is really overcomplicating things IMO. It's not like they can quickly reinforce this thing. They have no horse for 2 movers, no nearby cities, and no military to speak of on the power graph. What exactly do you think is in the city right now and what do you think will be in the city by the time we get a lighthouse and galley out of Bulldogs in 15-20T? The cheapest way to kill this city is when it's lightly defended. In 20 turns we'll probably have to lose a few units to take it, which is an additional cost. By doing this now, we totally cripple our already-weak neighbor who we were never going to be friends with, ensuring we easily get all the land between us and them. I think this is 100% worth it.

The only objection that I think is pretty fair is the general tightness of units we'll have at Bulldogs or Red Wings, depending on how we deploy our archer (which can easily reinforce and/or zone defense one of them via roads, but not both). In terms of overall strategy and development, though, I think the better longterm choice is to punish them now.

edit: I'm going to bed now, or else I'd pop on chat and talk about this further. Happy to hear further thoughts. Any from our other ded-lurkers?

[pindicator]

I don't understand - do you want to raze the city or keep it? If you want to keep the city then you don't want to attack for 10 turns anyway. If you want to raze it then we can get away with a quick strike. And you're over-simplifying the military requirement needed to keep what we have safe from barbs. For example, see the next post. Especially if our next settler is going to go to the gems, on the edge of our de-fogged tiles.

I just don't see any gain in attacking now. Razing his city does what for us?

Edit: And the galley isn't being too elaborate because we were going to build a galley Bulldogs anyway for circumnav

[pindicator]

Turn 065

The barb warrior moved onto our rice so I killed it with the axe. And we have more barbs incoming.



Two more workers finish at end of turn. My idea was to start an Axe in Red Wings and 1-turn a galley in Trailblazers. Then start a settler. Trailblazers should also steal the wheat again next turn to grow to size 5 in the one turn it's building the galley.

Worker turns:

Worker that just chopped into RW: move SE and build a cottage for the capital
Worker that just chopped into TB: move W and chop another forest. He will then transition to gems city (unless this gets delayed due to military going elsewhere).
Worker being built in RW: move E-E-NE to grass spices to chop that into the capital
Worker being built in TB: move SW-S to plains forest hill to chop that into the capital.

Those 3 chops will all go into our next settler, getting us a 3-turn settler to settle the gems with. Unless we choose to do other things, of course.

[pindicator]

And I forgot to end turn... Leaving for work, hopefully scooter can. Or one of the lurkerfolk

[scooter]

I don't understand - do you want to raze the city or keep it? If you want to keep the city then you don't want to attack for 10 turns anyway. If you want to raze it then we can get away with a quick strike. And you're over-simplifying the military requirement needed to keep what we have safe from barbs. For example, see the next post. Especially if our next settler is going to go to the gems, on the edge of our de-fogged tiles.

I just don't see any gain in attacking now. Razing his city does what for us?

Edit: And the galley isn't being too elaborate because we were going to build a galley Bulldogs anyway for circumnav

I guess we don't have much choice but to wait till it grows, so okay. But razing it before it contributes and is reinforced is a real benefit. The next thing they'll do probably is settle the rice city, and then we're just letting them fill in that area. By getting military over there quickly, we've locked it down as ours.

I just think we should be handling our border with them like we would a duel. We won't be friends, so we need to get stuff in their face now and pressure them before they recover from their bad start.

[pindicator]

Scooter -

Do you think we'll have any problems taking the city when we choose to?  I'm seeing a contradiction in the reasoning: either Nakor/Jester team is weak enough that we can push them around and we can take the city whenever we're ready to, or this is a team that we fear will be able to defend it's territory and we need to strike before they're ready.  Which is it?

Here's what I had planned on building for military over the next 15 turns:

Galley (t65) out of Trailblazers
Barracks (t67) out of Orioles
Archer (t70) out of Orioles
Axe (t70) out of Red Wings
Archer (t73) out of Orioles
Spear (t77) out of Orioles
Galley (t78) out of Bulldogs

The archers would be for Bulldogs and the Gems City / Red Wings, to free up our axes for other purposes than garrison.  Unfortunately none of these will come soon enough to prevent the barbs up north from pillaging and disrupting the chops I had planned up north; the axe up north now needs to deal with those.

Gems city ETA right now is to put the settler in position on t70 and settle the city t71.   2 workers would be put in position on t70 as well.  Gems mined and hooked up on t75.  We would need some kind of unit in the area in case a barb shows.  In fact, those barbarians up north are already screwing up the timeline.  I had planned on having the axe Roberto Alomar cover that new city, but I'm not sure there's enough time to deal with the northern barbarians and then head south to protect the new settler.  The units we have in the pipe won't come in time.

That's why I'm so against war now - we gain little, sacrifice a lot (delaying the gems is delaying the time that all of our cities can grow larger)

So if you were to take our 2 axes and go after Nakor now, what would you be willing to sacrifice in return?  Because you would need to sacrifice something.

Look at it another way: how many turns are they going to waste shuffling workers and how many hammers are they going to waste on a garrison? Wee're already ahead of the curve, let's zoom farther and attack with ease later

Sorry if I'm being too gruff in my arguing but I really don't see anything I would sacrifice now to take a shot at their new city.  I'd rather come back in 20-30 turns with horse archers or catapults.

[scooter]

Scooter -

Do you think we'll have any problems taking the city when we choose to? I'm seeing a contradiction in the reasoning: either Nakor/Jester team is weak enough that we can push them around and we can take the city whenever we're ready to, or this is a team that we fear will be able to defend it's territory and we need to strike before they're ready. Which is it?

I don't think we'll have trouble, but I think it'll be way more costly when he has Praetorians and horses, and that's what it'll be in 20 turns.

I think I'm looking at this from the complete opposite angle as you. I look at this as costs us very little and damages our most natural geographic enemy Nakorester VERY significantly. It probably completely demoralizes them and effectively knocks them out actually.

So if you were to take our 2 axes and go after Nakor now, what would you be willing to sacrifice in return? Because you would need to sacrifice something.

The galleys in a heartbeat. I think it's generally unlikely we'll get circumnav with those two galleys, so I'm still feeling iffy on how good of an investment they are. I think circumnav is more likely to be decided by Caravels or map trading combined with some fortunate geographic placement.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to proceeding as planned, and of course I don't mind strong opinions that differ here (I think it's helpful). It's not like it even matters that much - our second axe is way out of position relative to Nakor, so it's almost a moot point. I would like to get visibility on the city itself, but I don't see an easy way to do that.

[NobleHelium]

Just send some units south of the city and get rid of the roads or watch for reinforcements then you can attack with another unit or two.

[pindicator]

So this is the turn where we either 1-turn a galley or instead build an axe in the capital.

If we build the axe, we'll still get the next settler on the same turn. I would move that new axe north to deal with the barbs. I would take Roberto Alomar back into Red Wings, and then south to pave the way for our new gems city, and then the archers coming out of Orioles can replace them so they can go after Nakor/Jester. (We really don't have a unit to spare for Nakor/Jester right now, unless you want to roll the dice on barbs. But I agree, let's build more military, and then we'll be in a position to attack them.)

Makes me think we need to do the axe in the capital regardless of if we pressure Nakor/Jester or not. We're just too light on military right now to defend our empire from barbs

I have today off, so I'll be able to play before the deadline. Just want to make sure we're on the same page before I do.

[scooter]

Yeah I'm good with axe next. I think that gives us a lot more flexibility. I'm not completely opposed to galley though if you change your mind, but I'd probably slightly prefer axe. I think we're going to be harassed by barbs a bit worse than most people given the space we have around us. Almost makes Great Wall tempting. Almost. :P