[SPOILERS] Roland and Suboptimal Team Up

[roland of gilead]

that first golden age will be interesting. China should be ok with a few wonders up and a religion perhaps.

Not sure where you get it from though boats is part of it.

if i got a religion and spread it to you what beliefs would you get? everything except the founder?

I'd get era score from the first ship, a little bit more if it's the first one in the world.  I'll need to review the list and see how I can cobble together 25 era score.  In PBEM 14 it was all I could do to get to 24 era score and we need 25 here. 

Regarding religious beliefs I'd get the follower belief and the worship belief (religious building) in any city you converted.  I don't get the founder belief or the enhancer belief, unless I'm Kongo (which I'm not).  If you grabbed Choral Music and spread your religion to my cities we'd both get from shrines and temples.

choral music is a founder belief. If it wasn't i would be unstoppable as china. 

i still think we want one of us to get it and that almost certainly has to be me unfortunate. 

give me a couple of days and i will get some numbers for how much culture per turn can be achieved with it and 2 or 3 well placed theater squares.

[suboptimal]

that first golden age will be interesting. China should be ok with a few wonders up and a religion perhaps.

Not sure where you get it from though boats is part of it.

if i got a religion and spread it to you what beliefs would you get? everything except the founder?

I'd get era score from the first ship, a little bit more if it's the first one in the world.  I'll need to review the list and see how I can cobble together 25 era score.  In PBEM 14 it was all I could do to get to 24 era score and we need 25 here. 

Regarding religious beliefs I'd get the follower belief and the worship belief (religious building) in any city you converted.  I don't get the founder belief or the enhancer belief, unless I'm Kongo (which I'm not).  If you grabbed Choral Music and spread your religion to my cities we'd both get from shrines and temples.

choral music is a founder belief. If it wasn't i would be unstoppable as china. 

i still think we want one of us to get it and that almost certainly has to be me unfortunate. 

give me a couple of days and i will get some numbers for how much culture per turn can be achieved with it and 2 or 3 well placed theater squares.

According to the wiki and the civilopedia Choral Music is a follower belief (as is Divine Inspiration).  Sacred Places and Church Property are founder beliefs.  Actually, China with Choral Music and Sacred Places would be scary.

[roland of gilead]

that first golden age will be interesting. China should be ok with a few wonders up and a religion perhaps.

Not sure where you get it from though boats is part of it.

if i got a religion and spread it to you what beliefs would you get? everything except the founder?

I'd get era score from the first ship, a little bit more if it's the first one in the world.  I'll need to review the list and see how I can cobble together 25 era score.  In PBEM 14 it was all I could do to get to 24 era score and we need 25 here. 

Regarding religious beliefs I'd get the follower belief and the worship belief (religious building) in any city you converted.  I don't get the founder belief or the enhancer belief, unless I'm Kongo (which I'm not).  If you grabbed Choral Music and spread your religion to my cities we'd both get from shrines and temples.

choral music is a founder belief. If it wasn't i would be unstoppable as china. 

i still think we want one of us to get it and that almost certainly has to be me unfortunate. 

give me a couple of days and i will get some numbers for how much culture per turn can be achieved with it and 2 or 3 well placed theater squares.

According to the wiki and the civilopedia Choral Music is a follower belief (as is Divine Inspiration).  Sacred Places and Church Property are founder beliefs.  Actually, China with Choral Music and Sacred Places would be scary.

i will check in game tomorrow. let's hope it is and we get stone. 

If so it will be scary. 

i could hopefully pass most of my gold to you and live off faith economy.

[Bruindane]

State of the religious discussion

Civ	Possible Pantheons
Indonesia	Earth Goddess Religious Idols Stone Circles Dance of the Aurora Desert Folklore Sacred Path
China	Monument to the Gods Earth Goddess

Religion	Founder	Follower	Enhancer	Building
Desired	Sacred Places	Choral Music	Defender of the Faith	Synagogue 5
Options	Pilgrimage Church Property	Work Ethic Divine Inspiration	Religious Colonization	Wat 3 2

Follower Belief & Building are available for non-founder.  Second prophet does not found a religion (Explores the Wilderness?).

Assumption: Building Stonehenge may be the only way to beat Japan and Russia to Choral Music.

Open Question: Who builds Stonehenge.

[roland of gilead]

it is follower, say i took that and we spread it to your relevant cities. 

What building would we want. 

i could also take defender of the faith and pick up sacred places later as no one else will take it except for denial purposes perhaps.

[suboptimal]

Indonesia is not hurt by the pantheons for pastures or plantations. is as important as for Indonesia.

Roland - Two things to keep in mind about Stonehenge. First, the breakeven point on chop vs. builder charge is 27. You will get that on a chop/harvest at 3 civics or 4 techs. Second, one Stonehenge is placed the stone resource it's next to can be harvested. Dunno if you're aware of either of those.

[roland of gilead]

yeah i intend to harvest it. knew that.

great point on chops didn't know that as such may well be the better option on the early wonder indeed any with the card in place.

i might have to waste a charge on the stone to build a quarry with masonry being so vital.

but at least only i have to do that. Might get lucky and have marble about.

[roland of gilead]

State of the religious discussion

Civ	Possible Pantheons
Indonesia	Earth Goddess Religious Idols Stone Circles Dance of the Aurora Desert Folklore Sacred Path
China	Monument to the Gods Earth Goddess

Religion	Founder	Follower	Enhancer	Building
Desired	Sacred Places	Choral Music	Defender of the Faith	Synagogue 5
Options	Pilgrimage Church Property	Work Ethic Divine Inspiration	Religious Colonization	Wat 3 2

Follower Belief & Building are available for non-founder.  Second prophet does not found a religion (Explores the Wilderness?).

Assumption: Building Stonehenge may be the only way to beat Japan and Russia to Choral Music.

Open Question: Who builds Stonehenge.

thanks for this really helps. we need to see where stone is of course but i think china builds it as it suits other tactics and i get it for about 60 hammers. 

others could really chase it and get it first of course. that would be ok but not ideal. 

did a trial run this morning with choral music and by industrial age turn 117 took pen and brush and hit 220 culture which is insane. 

3 good theater squares and 4 holy sites. few good great walls. 

wont get that in game but do thing 150-180 is easily doable. 

only had 6 cities as again was just testing culture. great faith as well of course. 

running the theater square adjacency card to get that as well.

[suboptimal]

China should be the one to build Stonehenge.

One thing to keep in mind as a critical different between SP and MP is the speed of ages. In SP it's the player's performance (or the occasional runaway AI) that drives when the ages turn. In MP, at least here, the ages have tended to be "locked" - Classical starts T60, Medieval T100 and subsequent ages every 30 turns after that. PBEM 18 was the first case in which an age came early, and even then it was the Classical and only by one turn.

My current planning with Indonesia is to found 2-3 coastal cities and have their first districts be Holy Sites. The cities that follow with build Campus or Holy Sites as their first district depending on what's around. In my last test game I actually held off on the Government Plaza and used Monumentality to buy settlers and builders rather than getting Ancestral Hall for free builders. The tech strategy was to seek out and then beeline Astrology and Sailing, in that order, so that I could get a religion for Choral Music. In this game I'll still be building Holy Sites but if you've got the first religion and can get Choral Music I simply won't found a religion when the prophet comes around. That might change if we're on separate land masses, though.

Since the meta continues to be "race to frigates and kill everyone else" what should our approach be if there are a lot of inland lakes (I've had that on a few starts)? I've had one or two of those starts in my test games and Indonesia is "at home" in a lake-rich environment. Could use the interior to generate faith for a few coastal bastions to launch raids from.

[roland of gilead]

i am hoping for a slightly inland lake that i can build ships in and canal out of.

i need to have a look at the fastest way to frigates. you probably need to do the eurekas for top part of tree and pass to me.

i can bear the brunt on culture ones and pass to you. hopefully you will get almost all of them boosted which is unusual.

i need to build a variety of districts. the obvious theater squares campus and holy sites.

need 1 military at least 1 harbor and i entertainment complex.

that's interesting on the eras i will want the classical one asap to get into monumnetality. then probably iealy want the next one a bit later to have maximised that.

going to do some proper play throughs now and star taking notes about what wonders go where and will pull to gether a list of eurekas we need to be getting. or mostly me.

going