Chaos-Sorcery

[Seravy]

I think that sounds fine. Why not give Wall Crusher to the non corporeal units and combat summons too, though?

Noncorporeal units can walk onto and through wall tiles so we don't want them to stop and attack the wall instead, that's a downgrade.

[Anskiy]

TBH I don't get why the Water Elemental has such high To Hit, that seems to decisively tilt things in its favor. Why not lower it to have the same To Hit as the Fire Giant? I mean, it's a Sorcery summon, it should be markedly worse in raw power than the Chaos one.

[Seravy]

All non-ranged normal units gain Wall Crusher and +1 attack

This should have been all non-ranged Corporeal units, oops.
idk if it should be restricted to only normal units or not.
On one end, +1 attack is a pretty relevant buff for Hell Hounds and they need that help.
On the other hand we don't want this to apply to zombies (they'd get another attack from being a combat summon and 2 are too many), maybe it could be "non-ranged, corporeal permanent units" instead.

[Suppanut]

All non-ranged normal units gain Wall Crusher and +1 attack

This should have been all non-ranged Corporeal units, oops.
idk if it should be restricted to only normal units or not.
On one end, +1 attack is a pretty relevant buff for Hell Hounds and they need that help.
On the other hand we don't want this to apply to zombies (they'd get another attack from being a combat summon and 2 are too many), maybe it could be "non-ranged, corporeal permanent units" instead.

Why not just "normal units and chaos creatures" instead? Chaos has a lot of spell that buff exclusively on chaos as well as some spells that buff normal units. But then, I think new spell you try to give is too similar to Metal Fire in vanilla and Blazing March on higher tier.

[Suppanut]

TBH I don't get why the Water Elemental has such high To Hit, that seems to decisively tilt things in its favor. Why not lower it to have the same To Hit as the Fire Giant? I mean, it's a Sorcery summon, it should be markedly worse in raw power than the Chaos one.

Agree. I think current water elemental is too much like clone of Fire Giant concept but more powerful which is so unusual for realm that suppose to play trick all the time. I also think it is rather odd that water elemental is overland summons when compare to other elementals which are combat summons. I think it is too much of incoherent of concept. I think Water Elemental should be combat summons like all other elementals.

[Seravy]

TBH I don't get why the Water Elemental has such high To Hit, that seems to decisively tilt things in its favor. Why not lower it to have the same To Hit as the Fire Giant? I mean, it's a Sorcery summon, it should be markedly worse in raw power than the Chaos one.

Agree. I think current water elemental is too much like clone of Fire Giant concept but more powerful which is so unusual for realm that suppose to play trick all the time. I also think it is rather odd that water elemental is overland summons when compare to other elementals which are combat summons. I think it is too much of incoherent of concept. I think Water Elemental should be combat summons like all other elementals.

Water Elemental was specifically designed to fix a problem and had stats assigned that were appropriate to do so.
Specifically, Sorcery having zero overland summoning spells at uncommon, and only one at common and rare each.
So Water Elemental can't be too weak, it has to be at least mediocre otherwise it's unable to fix the problem.

The higher than usual (tho other high end uncommons also have 50% chance to hit I think, Lizards definitely, maybe Unicorns and Chimeras too?) chance to hit was probably chosen because it makes Focus Magic and Reinforce Magic better on them and this is literally the only summon they can buff with those spells. It's also necessary to justify the higher than usual cost and a high cost is an intended disadvantage for a realm that has no cheaper option to choose if necessary.
But at the end of the day the main reason was because this cost and damage output is generally the optimal to bridge the gap between Nagas and Storm Giants.
Sorcery nodes having a stronger non-rare creature is nice too, as they were generally too easy before it was added (only having phantoms and nagas)

[Anskiy]

Hmm I see your point, but it still feels rather odd and flavorless to me. Sorcery isn't supposed to rely on brute force, yet Water Elementals are little more than brute force summons. Would there be any chance of making feel more subtle? Maybe swap out their ranged attack for something else?

[Seravy]

Hmm I see your point, but it still feels rather odd and flavorless to me. Sorcery isn't supposed to rely on brute force, yet Water Elementals are little more than brute force summons. Would there be any chance of making feel more subtle? Maybe swap out their ranged attack for something else?

A reminder we're 3 years after the game's release and 1 year after the "final" balance patch. Nerfing or changing units without a very good reason is not on the table. (Nerfing especially)
At most I'm going to do minor changes in areas that desperately need it. (synergy for the two realms and spells people rarely use or find underwhelming especially)

...and for that reason I think I'm leaving the research cost of Fire Giant and Water Elemental alone. Water Elemental also stays corporeal, Sorcery being weak against Web is a fundamental part of the design.
Replacing Disrupt definitely seems to be worth it, and giving Fire Giant some range defense as well.
I will keep thinking if there is anything beyond that we can do that doesn't alter overall gameplay in unintended areas.

[Hadriex]

If the goal is to keep the changes as minimal as possible. Let's see.

I think minimum alteration would look something like this:

Fire giants: casting skill of 5 and ability to cast disrupt. - Very minor buff that allows focus magic to combo with fire giants. - no change to research, maint, or casting cost. - Unit remains identical in role as before with small added utility and a strong synergy

Disrupt: Same identical spell it is now, but allowed to target units with a minor effect, I suggest a single turn stun that allows a resistance roll. This has soft synergy with sorcery by playing into their preferred strategy and plays well with fate mastery. - No change in research or casting cost. Spell continues to do what it did before but now can target addition units.

Animate ammo: add additional effect if cast on own units. Possibilities include +10 accuracy to ranged attacks, adding ammo, or even making the unit shoot at a random enemy (as extra turn for that unit, but you cannot control where it shoots as it's ammunition took a life of it's own.) - No change to research or casting cost. Original function remains intact. Strong synergy with focus magic.

Wall of Fire: Get one or two fire elementals for free at the start of battle if the city is enchanted. -This is a bit heavier a change. If would add some chaff units for your ranged units to hide behind and softly synergizes with sorcery.

Guardian Wind: Some small advantage to corporeal flying units. This would synergize with gargoyles and chaos channels.


I find in general I am reluctant to buff sorcery, as sorcery is such a powerhouse in other combinations.

[Seravy]

So far untested changes I've implemented :

-Corruption research cost reduced (320->260)
-Shatter research cost reduced (440->320)
-Removed Disrupt (it can be re-enabled through Spells.INI)
-Added new spell : Breakthrough (440 RP)
Chaos Common - Combat Global Enchantment, 12 MP
All non-ranged units gain the following buffs
-Corporeal permanent units gain Wall Crusher and +1 melee attack
-Non-Corporeal units gain +1 attack and defense
-Temporal units gain +1 attack and defense
(all units except combat summoned units are permanent units)
-Added Breakthrough spell parameters to Modding.INI
-Fire Giant now has Large Shield, Resist Elements.
-Fixed bug : AI adjusted combat spellcasting priorities based on Entangle being in effect when Call Lightning was in effect instead
-The AI will no longer cast Construct Catapult against Terror.
-Aura of Majesty now negates any diplomatic penalty from spells that target terrain outside cities. (Corruption, Raise Volcano)

This modifies our spreadsheet like this :
   

I think that's good enough, mission accomplished?

I plan to watch Hadriex's realm test videos anyway but that's going to take a while and then I'll probably want to also play the game, so this update might be uploaded several months later.

I was a little bit worried about the Fire Giant buff but after giving it some thought, building ranged garrisons against a Chaos wizard has always been a losing strategy anyway so it's probably fine. (even the early combat spell spam annihilates magicians and bowmen effectively and once the Chaos wizard has rares, it's Flame Strike or Fire Storm time)
Does make Fire Giant lairs and nodes a fair bit harder but that's ok I guess. They were already hard anyway.