A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[civac2]

Hm, you may be right.

My counter point was that it competes with Slavery, the best civic in the game, and Serfdom which is also very strong in CTH. Also requiring an extra pop for the farm + engineer combo is significant downside in the late game with the costs for growth in big cities and factory-induced health problems.

Oth, you can also run Representation on top of Emancipation.

[xist10]

I think Mjmd is very good with the counterpoint:

This is the first game its looked good. A LOT of it is just that you guys were so far ahead. Almost anything you chose would have been fine. The other factor is that they were already on a specialist path, which isn't normally as good / as viable of a strat (IE blame America for free mids). From personal experience most people avoid Democracy because its not on any of the relevant tech paths IF IF IF you have multiple people close together. The last two times people tried going Democracy too early they died.

Do we have a clear Emancipation dominance in another game outside the PB81 ?
I won't say this isn't strong, but this also competes with Slavery in the same row.
Slavery with Factories and police state slavery becomes competitive again - 125% bonus on the 30p for 67p per pop ?
Yes, you still need 3 pop per tank and the 125% bonus also apply to the Emancipation prod, but slavery remains a valid choice (superior with Kremlin).

(If you want to buff the other 2 civics in that row...)

Edit: And like Civac wrote, that are 2 Pop for 4f, 4p(, 3r) and the 3 GE points.
State property, caste system (grassland) workshops have 4f, 8p with 2 pops. - Or 4f, 4p if you are comparing bio farm and plain plains workshop.

Hey, scientist are similar.
Bio farm + Rep/Emancipation scientist are at 4f, 2p, 6r for 2 pop.
2 grassland towns are at least 4f, 10c - up to 4f, 2p, 14c with proper Civics.

Second edit:
If you bring a food corp in the equation, this changes a bit, but workshops are still competitive on prod output alone - 4p for a plains workshop to 4p, 3r for an engineer. (5p for a plainshill mine)
And plains towns are with 1f, 1p and 5c also competitive with a 2p, 6c scientist.
If you add correct civics and possible river placement for 1p, 1c (with Levees), improvements are still better than the specialist.

[Tarkeel]

Honestly, I think it's (once again) corporations that are busted. We ran the emancipation combo in PB66 without any homegrown corps, and it was decent but not game-breaking.

Edit: Also, you're usually not running it for the GPP at this stage in the game, although it can come to matter in certain situations.

[naufragar]

Lazy sunday, so I'm feeling like doing lots of civ math. Fun!

I think I already responded to the idea that Democracy is on an irrelevant tech path. It isn't. It's fine.

Slavery

A late game 1-pop whip with powered factory + police state gives 67 hammers. 1 engineer with Emancipation needs 8 turns to match those hammers (4h *2.25). But if you're whipping every 8 turns to keep pace with the Emancipation engineer, happiness will eventually catch up to you. Plus you can't whip wealth. Plus late game city sizes (12+) make regrowth times much more annoying. By the time the game has reached Democracy/Communism/Factories, I think +2 hammer Emancipation blows Slavery out of the water. (Leaving out Kremlin, but also Statue of Liberty, which I think is fair.)

Grassland Cottages

A fully matured grassland cottage produces 2 food & 5 gold. With two civics, it can produce +1 hammer & +2 gold. So two pop points working two grassland towns can be food neutral and produce 4h/14commerce. 2 pop points using 2 civics working a bio farm can produce 2h/6c. So on that analysis, it 2 grassland towns are much stronger than farm+specialist. But they should be!

Those two towns took 60 turns to grow! Any new or newly-conquered city with a library or market or whatever can produce the specialist yield immediately. Plus, those two towns require two grassland tiles, while the specialist only requires one. Grassland cottages that have been worked for 60 turns will beat emancipation specialists, but for sheer flexibility and time-to-profit emancipation blows it out of the water. My dislike of Emancipation was born from seeing tiny island cities with no grassland produce incredible yields.

Workshops

Two grassland workshops produce -2food/6hammers. Terrible. But with two civics (Caste System and State Property), they now are food neutral and produce 8 hammers. Using another two civics (Rep & Emancipation), a bio farm + engineer produces 4 hammers and 3 beakers. As before, the two workshops look to come out ahead, but again, we've used two grasslands for the workshops rather than the 1 for the farm. Emancipation is just so, so smooth.

Corporations

And those State Property workshops better be strong because they come with the downside of disabling corporations. Tarkeel's got a point that corporations are strong, but my distaste for Emancipation was born from a no-corp game.

With corp food, as Xist points out, Emancipation (plus Rep) becomes pretty much the One Right Choice keeping up with or beating improvements in total yields. Corporations already remove a lot of the value of tiles, but Emancipation makes it so you don't have to care at all.

[Thoth]

Hm, you may be right.

My counter point was that it competes with Slavery, the best civic in the game, and Serfdom which is also very strong in CTH. Also requiring an extra pop for the farm + engineer combo is significant downside in the late game with the costs for growth in big cities and factory-induced health problems.

Oth, you can also run Representation on top of Emancipation.

If you want to see what happens when it gets combined with corp food, beakers from Rep, and gold from Environmentalism see my screenshots here:

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...09&page=15

Note the tax rate, GPT, and the fact that I'm not building wealth anywhere and am in the middle of a major air and sea war with Commodore.   

The synergy is nuts.   This was a perfect storm of huge Corporation bonuses for the map size, cheap markets and grocers from leader traits, bonus specialists from wonder and UB,  and vastly buffed specialists from civics.  


With the supporting civics, Emancipation isn't limited by specialist slots.   A Citizen can produce 3 hammers, 3 beakers, and 2 gold.   Looks like a plains hill silver to me.

[Thoth]

I think Mjmd is very good with the counterpoint:

This is the first game its looked good. A LOT of it is just that you guys were so far ahead. Almost anything you chose would have been fine. The other factor is that they were already on a specialist path, which isn't normally as good / as viable of a strat (IE blame America for free mids). From personal experience most people avoid Democracy because its not on any of the relevant tech paths IF IF IF you have multiple people close together. The last two times people tried going Democracy too early they died.

Do we have a clear Emancipation dominance in another game outside the PB81 ?

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...09&page=15


Look at the demographics pic I post on that page.   I'm out producing Commodore who has more than twice my land.