The Quarterdeck - Turn Discussion Thread

[thestick]

Gah, just remembered the Feudalism/Banking requirements before you posted. Proposal to Q looks fine.

Thinking out loud, what's the problem with sitting back and teching? The eternal problem is 'someone outtechs us with their larger empire.' The other problem is 'TEAM hits a military tech.' Let's see, TEAM still doesn't have Civil Service, so odds of hitting anything farther than Gunpowder are slim. Still, Muskets are a lot better than Longbows... it's pretty clear we aren't going to hit any other military techs besides Military Science/Tradition in a reasonable timeframe, so now-ish plus whatever we need to build up is the best time to attack.

And Astronomy, we don't have many ports, but that sounds mighty tempting... of course, maintanence will be insane, and those cities will take forever to become productive...

Everything really comes down to 'don't settle Pink Dots called Tortuga' doesn't it?

[NobleHelium]

So which third of M3 did you send that to?

a stowaway! I wonder how many others are creeping silently around our deserted ship?

We're probably undead lurkers at this point.

[thestick]

1. We were screwed the moment we settled Tortuga without Copper.
2. We don't have the production edge to attack Tasunke. Defending is so easy it's laughable...
3. Therefore we should hit Astronomy and settle more land.
4. And Chemistry isn't a complete waste, it unlocks Frigates and Pirates.
5. Though payoff times for colonies are absurd.
6. And we will probably lose any colonial war.
7. But again, see Point 1.

[Cornflakes]

Sorry for the delay, I was playing the PB9 turn ... war turn

Vassals are off, right? Maintenance will just be distance, which is still high but won't grow exponentially as we continue to expand colonially. If we get to the colonies early (and nobody else has Astronomy yet) and get a good head start I think we could do it. Emphasize hammers, while the home country goes all-out commerce.

Our workers have almost worked themselves out of their jobs back home. Just a few more mines and plains cottages to put up and then they're just sitting on their thumbs. We'd lose nothing by shipping them wholesale to the new world. We can have 2 settlers lined up and get 2 galleys to 49/50 hammers the turn before so the auto-upgrade gets us almost to completed galleons. Ship 2 settlers and 4 workers across (Barbs are off, and we'll have NAP's). We already have some idea of the coastline via map trade, and might want to arrange another map trade with Trolls in a couple turns.

Workkboats will also be able to bridge Ocean with Astronomy, so if we build them now they can move to the shortest gap in ocean and be ready to dash across. They move slower so they might still arrive behind the galleons, but not my much. We're SPI so we can do a quick Caste swap to pop the borders, then back for Slavery to whip out the next round of settlers.

[Cornflakes]

Got a quick reply from Q. I'm off to bed now, so think about this and we can discuss tomorrow.

I'd rather discuss now. I have no interest in attacking you (for some reason or another...) so I'm okay with game-long.
That'd let me focus on trolls, who currently seem poised to sign short peace and then butcher us. Basically their deal is if I get game-long with everyone they'll sign too, making me a sort of switzerland (I have no chance of winning anyway, and I can't settle any disputed land). Otherwise, they'll just chew me in 10 turns and take the land.
So your choice really (personally I just don't want to play war turns, as you know...).

Game-long NAP? That can't be broken? So ... basically TEAM just builders their way to culture or space, or else watch someone else win by one of these methods or domination? For the rest of us it's as if that land was just a black splotch on the map, with someone playing just to keep the game moving.

If this is the way to "eliminate" team without "unbalancing" the game then I'd say have Q pillage everything, whip the cities into the ground on units which he immediately deletes. Once all cities are at size 1 and all improvements pillaged and all units deleted he gives control to AI and we agree not to ever declare war on the AI. AI will never catch up enough to declare war on anyone else.

I think we need to contact Trolls and see what's up. The only way we can agree to this is if nobody is allowed to move through TEAM territory (otherwise we have a wide-open back door where Trolls can hit-and-run attack us whenever they choose). If Trolls sign the temporary 10-turn peace that will take us almost up the the expiration of our NAP. Trolls then re-declare and we join in for the cleanup from behind as soon as our NAP expires. I think we gain more by allowing the war to continue.

Tropical Trolls,

Qgq just contacted us regarding a game-long NAP, stating that if he could secure such a deal with all teams that you would also agree (making him something like and always-neutral Switzerland). Before agreeing to such a proposal we would like to hear your side and get your reasoning and motivation for such an odd proposal. Why not simply swallow up the weak civ? Especially now that it's commanded by an inexperienced player? Is this an attempt to keep the game balanced with the essentially absent TEAM? We fear that turning TEAM into a dummy-civ will kill the game as the turn player now has absolutely nothing to play for.

Pirates

[Cornflakes]

I sent a brief message to Q fishing for clarification and got this back...

I'd rather discuss now. I have no interest in attacking you (for some reason or another...) so I'm okay with game-long.
That'd let me focus on trolls, who currently seem poised to sign short peace and then butcher us. Basically their deal is if I get game-long with everyone they'll sign too, making me a sort of switzerland (I have no chance of winning anyway, and I can't settle any disputed land). Otherwise, they'll just chew me in 10 turns and take the land.
So your choice really (personally I just don't want to play war turns, as you know...).

That is a different matter entirely. A Switzerland? Doesn't that just make TEAM irrelevant and someone (you) just gets stuck playing meaningless turns to keep the game moving for the rest of us?

I'll have to confer with the team before agreeing to a game-long unbreakable NAP.

I didn't say I'd enjoy it.
My task is to do whats best for TEAM, and whats best for TEAM is, ultimately survivable. TEAM is, no matter what I want, irrelevant - we didn't even have a state religion until I joined. Is it of benefit to you for me to try slow Trolls from conquering us? Yes, but its of no aid to TEAM as a civilization as it dooms us to a fast death.
Honestly, if you can think of something better I'm all ears - I'm seriously just making this up on the spot (they didn't say that exactly, they basically they won't sign a NAP just to let another team guzzle).
And who said NAPs are unbreakable

Can we decide what we want, and then leave me to work things out? I want to say something like "since TEAM is 'irrelevant' it would be best to let things play out to their natural conclusion." ... We stand to glean some easy pickings on the back side after Trolls break their front. If TEAM is in fact dead and just waiting elimination it might be best to go Grenadiers first so that we're ready in time. Then we can choose between Astronomy (island Continent) or Nationalism.

[Cornflakes]

I you would rather do the talking you're welcome to take on the task. I can just write to Q: Hey, I haven't been involved with the team in the past 2-3 months due to my heavy investment in our PB9. thestick will contact you shortly via our team gmail.

Our real research rate (accounting for 20% prereq bonus) is 960 beakers per turn at 142 gpt deficit, with 860g in the bank. 6 turns or full research, or about 5800 beakers. Breakeven research rate is 680 beakers per turn

Beaker cost (including prerequisite techs)
Nationalism: 3515 (3 turns, w/ 30% overflow into next tech)
Astronomy: 4290 (4 turns with 50% overflow)
Military Science: 2860 (3 turns, no overflow)
Military Tradition: 6375 (7 turns, including finishing with 1 turn breakeven)
Democracy: 10375 (13 turns, 6 at max and finishing with 7 turns breakeven or min/max)
Rifling: 9438 (11 turns)
Guilds: 2431 (3 turns, 30% overflow)
Steel: 4004 (5 turns, 80% overflow)

Military Science > Astronomy (or vice versa) ... 8 turns

[thestick]

I'm fine with discussing things over, just tell Q 'send proposals to dg1teampirates at gmail.'

We 'want' TEAM to continue attacking Trolls so we can steal some land, and no game-long NAP because we're hoping to invade eventually, and TEAM wants their prolonged existence. If Q's actually being honest we could somehow negotiate to ship him off to an island colony... say 'give us your empire and we will ensure you survive.'

How about asking Q if he seriously wants 'survival at all costs?'

Are you saying that you'd be fine with anything, as long as it ensures survival?

...and yes, you can laugh at me for suggesting this, or when it turns out Q's putting on a complete act. Some days I wish I was better at Werewolf...

Don't send that message to Trolls; Q admitted it's not an actual proposal he's worked with Trolls.

[Cornflakes]

yeah, message to troll won't be going anywhere. I don't think we want to discuss the island colony with Q. He can't really race us there because he doesn't have Astronomy, but he may say something to the other teams. I'm sure others are pondering that, but no need to tip anyone off that it's a race. Let's just get there ASAP and establish our hold.

I think tech path should be Military Science > Astronomy. MilSci first because even a couple grenadiers will make us look stronger and ensure peace on the mainland. Plus we'll need a few turns to get settlers and workboats ready, so immediately rushing to astronomy won't do us a whole lot of good. Also, I am opposed to upgrading if we can avoid it, and earlier MilSci allows us to begin producing Grenadiers directly a lot sooner.

I think our stance towards TEAM should be 'neutral' until the opportunity arises to swipe some easy pickings. We let our NAP expire while gradually building up forces, ready to strike and take his western cities once Trolls break through. With Astronomy we also have the option to grab his northern coastal cities by sea, either amphibiously or landing first.

[thestick]

I forget, do we have Optics? Obviously going to need our own Caravels to scout. Just realized we don't know if the other teams have staked their claim yet; our maps are old.

The (completely crazy) idea with Astronomy was to say 'we give you a city on the mainland in exchange for continued survival.' Wait, that sounds like a vassalization proposal, and if Q's vassalizing to anyone it'll be TEAM.

Well... what benefits do we have with allying with TEAM? Since he stated he's not going to attack us, this is a no tech trading game, and the odds of us obtaining his empire without bloodshed are slim... none. Agree with 'neutral' stance.

Of course, if our attitude is 'slow buildup and wait,' it's most likely that we'll just end up waiting until the end of time. The whole 'we won't get enough force to attack unless we actively build it,' or something.

I say we should hit Astronomy first (assuming M3 renews the NAP of course); Grenadiers won't do us a whole lot of good, and shuttling troops to the other side will. Aren't many threats on the mainland as is besides M3...