RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Catherine of Sumeria

[Dreylin]

He said the rendez-vous is on T28 not T27, so we'll have to stay on that hill for 1 turn I guess. He also said he wanted to end the war soon which makes sense to build peace time.

Well, we just have to wait tomove until after regoarrarr can see the tile, then we can move away NW. We can probably then make peace that turn and get bumped out to the North.

In game I moved Scouting Bob W-SW on forested tundra hill and revealed furs. No animals spotted. I moved Primo towards the rendez-vous point. I will move Tyler to reveal coast south of cows/corn.

I moved back N, NW but we only lose a turn if he goes back SE, SW next turn. I wonder about having him start to head back and maybe take one of the side routes, since there must be someone else living in the vicinity.

We need to talk a bit more tomorrow but with all the animals around I am having doubts again about a second scout. Maybe we can just build another warrior and send Tyler up N. It's quite forested anyway

I set the build to Warrior (5t) because it would probably be good to have one almost-built in either event. I was thinking that if we wanted to send the additional scouting unit North, then a Warrior is right, but if we wanted to explore more South, then the added movement of a Scout would be good. If we did build another Scout, should make certain he sticks to defensive terrain and does not stay out in the open.

Aso, since there's a lot of open space on the map, we're going to be seeing a fair amount of Barb activity once they get rolling.

Tarquin our new Worker moved to Farm the Corn

BW in 2t, and we need to work out what to research next. I think that Fishing & AH are the two best options - AH because we have Cows & Pigs in view, and may want to find Horses (scouting Chariots are good); or Fishing since we will need it soon and it'll reduce the cost of Pottery a chunk as well.

Another question is whether we want to dial research down to minimise overflow fom BW and accumulate a few gold, or just maximise our research progress by sticking to 100%.

[kalin]

Well, we just have to wait tomove until after regoarrarr can see the tile, then we can move away NW. We can probably then make peace that turn and get bumped out to the North.

I was wondering if we don't want to go S actually to see as much as sunrise's land as possible just in case. That will require us to go S for a couple of turns then make peace. I think I understand the T27-T28 deal, so it's all good. I noticed Sunrise has some nice land close to his capital, richer in immediately available resources.

I moved back N, NW but we only lose a turn if he goes back SE, SW next turn. I wonder about having him start to head back and maybe take one of the side routes, since there must be someone else living in the vicinity.

I agree that it seems that there may be someone else in the vicinity. I wouldn't go backtrack though... Scouting Bob can go N on 2 routes around this point uncovering new land: one around where we spotted the wolf, and one around what seems to be an estuary (I marked it on the map with coast). I will probably go S a bit then back N.

I set the build to Warrior (5t) because it would probably be good to have one almost-built in either event. I was thinking that if we wanted to send the additional scouting unit North, then a Warrior is right, but if we wanted to explore more South, then the added movement of a Scout would be good. If we did build another Scout, should make certain he sticks to defensive terrain and does not stay out in the open.

I am bit uncomfortable about another scout. I feel that it's risky with a lot of animals around and soon with barbs. Sure we can stick to defensive terrain but still it's riskier. I think I'd prefer to build another 1 or 2 warriors then chop a worker, then a settler.

We should discuss in a bit more detail the MM plan. The capital will grow in 8 with 4F overflow (once the corn is farmed): 5T @+3F then 3T @+5F makes 30F and we need 26 to grow. We therefore have some flexibility. I think we can build exactly 2 warriors in the next 8 turns using the 1H overflow and sync with growth to size 4.

Aso, since there's a lot of open space on the map, we're going to be seeing a fair amount of Barb activity once they get rolling.

Tarquin our new Worker moved to Farm the Corn

BW in 2t, and we need to work out what to research next. I think that Fishing & AH are the two best options - AH because we have Cows & Pigs in view, and may want to find Horses (scouting Chariots are good); or Fishing since we will need it soon and it'll reduce the cost of Pottery a chunk as well.

I like the idea of Fishing (6T) and AH (11T) as they reduce the costs of both Pottery and Writing which we really want! Fishing means we build the close city first while AH would probably mean we go for the cow/corn. What did you think of the Sushi/Taco names? I know they are not in line with the theme we discussed but the names seem very appropriate. I am thinking to just name the cities too alternatively (just like the units) and choose names that seem appropriate in the context.

If I were to choose, I'd choose AH first and go for corn/cows (Taco) first. AH would reveal horses and I feel that we may have them close to the capital. If we don't have copper we *have* to go for AH imo. I am not set on this decision so we may wait another 2T until BW is done.

You mentioned the barbs and I fully agree, so we'll need either chars or vultures on defense.

Another question is whether we want to dial research down to minimise overflow fom BW and accumulate a few gold, or just maximise our research progress by sticking to 100%.

I am not sure what saving gold would buy us now, but that's because I rarely (read never ) do that type of MM. I'd like to learn more about that.

@Lurkers/Dreylin: Also how do the discounts for another civ you met work? That is, both Broker and Sunrise know mysticism but it still seem to take 8 turns for us...

Also, since the Vultures are worse than axemen (yuck!) does this mean that the much maligned dog warriors are better?

Kalin

[Mortius]

Also, since the Vultures are worse than axemen (yuck!) does this mean that the much maligned dog warriors are better?

If you mean the direct comparison, yes Dog Soldiers are better than Axemen and Vultures, and as an additional bonus they don’t require metal
Dog Soldier vs Axemen = 6 vs 5
Dog Soldier vs Vulture = 7 vs 6

But if you compare them vs i.e. archer or chariot it’s completely different matter.

[Dreylin]

I was wondering if we don't want to go S actually to see as much as sunrise's land as possible just in case. That will require us to go S for a couple of turns then make peace. I think I understand the T27-T28 deal, so it's all good. I noticed Sunrise has some nice land close to his capital, richer in immediately available resources.

The problem with moving Primo South again is that sunrise has specifically asked us to end the war quickly, and moving back South suggests that we have little intention of doing so. I'm also afraid that the land to his Capital's SE may be isolated by his borders, so if we get pushed out that way we could get trapped.

As far as land quality goes, sunrise may have better land than us, however we have immediate access to much more land than he does so there'a a balancing factor there.

I agree that it seems that there may be someone else in the vicinity. I wouldn't go backtrack though... Scouting Bob can go N on 2 routes around this point uncovering new land: one around where we spotted the wolf, and one around what seems to be an estuary (I marked it on the map with coast). I will probably go S a bit then back N.

We'd certainly want to expose more land / coast on our way; not sure which direction you're suggesting here, so we need to make sure we're on the same page before we play next turn. TBH I really wasn't sure what to do with him last turn, as further SW seemed a bit of a limiting option if that's where Broker is, we're more interesting in meeting other people than scouting his capital at this point.

I am bit uncomfortable about another scout. I feel that it's risky with a lot of animals around and soon with barbs. Sure we can stick to defensive terrain but still it's riskier. I think I'd prefer to build another 1 or 2 warriors then chop a worker, then a settler.

Well barb warriors are still quite a ways off - we're only on t27 here - and Scouts have a pretty hefty bonus vs. Animals plus the Noble difficulty modifier. I would like to see us sending Tyler to scout out the North, another warrior for MP, and then a Scout to run around clearing the fog to the South.

We should discuss in a bit more detail the MM plan. The capital will grow in 8 with 4F overflow (once the corn is farmed): 5T @+3F then 3T @+5F makes 30F and we need 26 to grow. We therefore have some flexibility. I think we can build exactly 2 warriors in the next 8 turns using the 1H overflow and sync with growth to size 4.

Well, 8t at max-growth would get us 24hammers, so we'd have to postpone growth a turn in order to get two units out in the same time. I'd suggest we just keep on max-growth and then go to Worker the turn after we grow to size4.

Tarquin should probably move 1E of Lin once the Farm is complete and chop/mine the hill. Maybe follow by roading the tile and then moving to improve the Ivory? Chop should accelerate second Worker who can chop another forest into the Settler?

I like the idea of Fishing (6T) and AH (11T) as they reduce the costs of both Pottery and Writing which we really want! Fishing means we build the close city first while AH would probably mean we go for the cow/corn. What did you think of the Sushi/Taco names? I know they are not in line with the theme we discussed but the names seem very appropriate. I am thinking to just name the cities too alternatively (just like the units) and choose names that seem appropriate in the context.

As I said earlier, I'm easy on the names and am happy to leave them all up to you. The discussed theme was really just a way of having a large list on names, but a "food" theme is also an option! Spicy Fajitas if there's Cows near the Spices...

If I were to choose, I'd choose AH first and go for corn/cows (Taco) first. AH would reveal horses and I feel that we may have them close to the capital. If we don't have copper we *have* to go for AH imo. I am not set on this decision so we may wait another 2T until BW is done.

I'm going to reserve judgement, but I think we'll see both of those techs researched before we get our first Settler out, so am less worried about the order. Generally though, AH gives us info, while Fishing is only useful once we have a second city out.

One alternative would be to go Settler-Worker and put Sushi down quickly - it's start on a WB for the fish, so wouldn't need Worker attention straight away. If that was the route, we'd need Fishing first I think.

I am not sure what saving gold would buy us now, but that's because I rarely (read never ) do that type of MM. I'd like to learn more about that.

Wouldn't buy us a lot tbh, just thought I'd throw it out there as an option. It's probably not appropriate at this point, but generally later in the game we'll want to minimise our overflows, as it keeps our later research options open. If we run Binary research (0%/100%) we'll be going through periods of saving gold, and periods of teching, and the saving gold periods also act to keep options open.

@Lurkers/Dreylin: Also how do the discounts for another civ you met work? That is, both Broker and Sunrise know mysticism but it still seem to take 8 turns for us...

No idea!

[LiPing]

@Lurkers/Dreylin: Also how do the discounts for another civ you met work? That is, both Broker and Sunrise know mysticism but it still seem to take 8 turns for us...
Kalin

Bonus = (0.3 * Number of Civs who know it that you have met[2] / Total Number of Civs at the start[11]), rounded down to 2 decimal places = 1.05

Beakers given to tech = Beakers you make * Bonus[1.05] * (1 + 0.2 * Optional Prerequisites)

Basically it won't do you any good until the bonus is bigger, or you're making 20+ beakers a turn.

[kalin]

The problem with moving Primo South again is that sunrise has specifically asked us to end the war quickly, and moving back South suggests that we have little intention of doing so. I'm also afraid that the land to his Capital's SE may be isolated by his borders, so if we get pushed out that way we could get trapped.

We could ask sunrise about exploring S. What do you think? I agree that we shouldn't abuse his kindness by staying at war longer than necessary though. It seems that we may be able to go around the W of his capital which will probably not expand for some time. Should we help Sunrise get in touch with Broker? I'd say yes: we return the favor and it costs us little. Also we get them to explore things we already know, but I am not sure that's good.

As far as land quality goes, sunrise may have better land than us, however we have immediate access to much more land than he does so there'a a balancing factor there.

That's true. I wasn't complaining just noticing. Our land is very good long term imo. The fact that Sunrise has better quality land closer could be used as some argument for us getting a bit more land. Not sure that will fly but it's certainly a reasonable argument.

We'd certainly want to expose more land / coast on our way; not sure which direction you're suggesting here, so we need to make sure we're on the same page before we play next turn. TBH I really wasn't sure what to do with him last turn, as further SW seemed a bit of a limiting option if that's where Broker is, we're more interesting in meeting other people than scouting his capital at this point.

I agree that our priority here is meeting more people rather than scouting a distant capital. I said that we should go "opposite" his capital since he hasn't met anybody else yet. Opposite here means N and W. I suggest we take Scouting Bob in a NW directions, probably around the coast marked on the map. I don't remember his exact position so I'll have to check. If you get to play before we talk, just make a choice and keep a NW general direction.

Well barb warriors are still quite a ways off - we're only on t27 here - and Scouts have a pretty hefty bonus vs. Animals plus the Noble difficulty modifier. I would like to see us sending Tyler to scout out the North, another warrior for MP, and then a Scout to run around clearing the fog to the South.

A scout can move S then W of the blocker sign on the map. I still think that it's a risky proposition (see Broker) but I am not feeling strong about it. If you feel a scout is a better option, let's go scout.

Well, 8t at max-growth would get us 24hammers, so we'd have to postpone growth a turn in order to get two units out in the same time. I'd suggest we just keep on max-growth and then go to Worker the turn after we grow to size4.

I'll come back with a more detailed plan. I think we can both grow in 8 turns and produce 2 15H units with no overflow. Think about it: we produce 26H and 4F overflow which is a total of 30. I think we can MM to trade food for hammers. I think that trading overflow for a turn earlier on the unit is worth. At this point we can produce a warrior in 3 turns if need be, so if we decide on scout (sorry to repeat, but still not convinced about it) we may want to go scout first then, although we already started the warrior.

Tarquin should probably move 1E of Lin once the Farm is complete and chop/mine the hill. Maybe follow by roading the tile and then moving to improve the Ivory? Chop should accelerate second Worker who can chop another forest into the Settler?

I agree with farm then move 1E or 1NE of Lin then chop. Note that for IMP settlers mine is better than camp although camp is better for growth and happiness. I think we may want to do mine, followed by camp but not 100% sure of that.

Note that Lin has 0 commerce tiles at the moment and can only get 1 from the camp and 1 from the mine... Not great.

As I said earlier, I'm easy on the names and am happy to leave them all up to you. The discussed theme was really just a way of having a large list on names, but a "food" theme is also an option! Spicy Fajitas if there's Cows near the Spices...

I am easy on the names too, but I do like Sushi and Taco in the context. I like Taco better btw because it captures the corn too If there are spices there as well we can go with Spicy Taco.

I'm going to reserve judgement, but I think we'll see both of those techs researched before we get our first Settler out, so am less worried about the order. Generally though, AH gives us info, while Fishing is only useful once we have a second city out.

Decisions, decisions. I like the idea of AH first but let's see the copper situation and make a decision. I notice that AH is quite a bit more expensive than Fishing.

One alternative would be to go Settler-Worker and put Sushi down quickly - it's start on a WB for the fish, so wouldn't need Worker attention straight away. If that was the route, we'd need Fishing first I think.

More decisions Again the copper situation may decide for us. I like the idea of a fast second city. I'll try to run some simulations in my head Note that Fishing is a 6T tech and it would take 5T to expand, so it may not be necessary to go Fishing first. Again need to think more about this. I am very tempted by a 2nd city very quick: less maintenance + easier to defend against barbs!

Wouldn't buy us a lot tbh, just thought I'd throw it out there as an option. It's probably not appropriate at this point, but generally later in the game we'll want to minimise our overflows, as it keeps our later research options open. If we run Binary research (0%/100%) we'll be going through periods of saving gold, and periods of teching, and the saving gold periods also act to keep options open.

No idea!

Ok, I found this: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy...search.php

My understanding, and lurkers can correct me here is that you get something like 2.7% discount per civ that knows the tech. We only have 10 beakers at 100% so it won't make a difference for either fishing or mysticism. For mysticism it will make a difference only if we had 19-20 beakers...

Kalin

[kalin]

Bonus = (0.3 * Number of Civs who know it that you have met[2] / Total Number of Civs at the start[11]), rounded down to 2 decimal places = 1.05

Beakers given to tech = Beakers you make * Bonus[1.05] * (1 + 0.2 * Optional Prerequisites)

Basically it won't do you any good until the bonus is bigger, or you're making 20+ beakers a turn.

Hey LiPing! Thanks for the info. I just reached a similar conclusion

Kalin

[kalin]

I did some computation and it appears that we are 1F/H short of growing in 8 turns and building 2 units It's not too bad as we can leave one warrior for MP unfinished with 1H to go... Here's my basic line of though:

* We need 26F to grow. We currently have 1H overflow.

* Until the corn is farmed we produce 3F/3H per turn which can move like 2F/4H and 1F/5H. We have to do this for 5 turns which means 15F/15H, or a total of 30FH.

* Once the corn is farmed after 5 turns, we can do 5F/3H for 3 turns for 15F/9H for a total of 24FH.

Therefore with the 1H overflow we will have 55FH in 8 turns which is 1 short of the 56 (26 + 30) needed. I don't think we should delay the worker/settler by 1 turn tbh. My suggestion therefore is to leave a warrior in queue with 14/15H and start worker/settler. Now we put already 4H in a warrior. We can finish the warrior in 4T instead of 5T if we want. If not we can switch to scout finish it in 4T I think.

Let me know what you think.

Kalin

[kalin]

Very quick update more details later: we were last, so I made our moves.

We have copper! Not at the capital but 5S1W of the capital. We can make another inland city with Rice and copper.

I found Broker's capital when I moved the scout on a forested hill NW I think. That was next to a wolf, which attacked and died the next turn. Scouting Bob is unscathed! Yay!

Offered sunrise peace in the game. No reason waiting.

Moved Primo on a NW course.

Moved Tyler to reveal coast around the potential city Taco and revealed no seafood. There's a copper up north so we may consider making 2 cities instead of one: one with cows, one with corn/copper.

Selected AH to research as I think we'll make the copper city first rather than Sushi.

Some screenshots to come.

Kalin

[Dreylin]

Well kalin and I had a long conflab this afternoon and came to the following agreements:

Primo - move N, and offer Peace to sunrise. We felt that asking to explore to his South might come across as stretching the friendship at this stage.

Scouting Bob - head NW (though I'm not sure of the route, kalin has more idea)

Tyler - continue generally NE to reveal local coastline towards Corn/Cow spot

Builds - switch to Scout (who will head South) then work on Warrior until size4 when we'll start second Worker, then a Settler. Warrior sits at 14/15h and ready to pop.

Research - AH, then Fishing

Settling - going for the close spot with Fish & Rice for minimum upkeep.


What we never talked about was revolting to Slavery. There's really no reason to do it until we need to whip something out, but if we need a whip on short notice and aren't already there....

Next good spot would probably be after the Scout is complete I guess?