[NO PLAYERS] The Kibitzer Klub: PB13 Map & Lurkers

[Fintourist]

I assume that this was directed to me so I guess I'm still allowed to answer (despite the fact that this topic was more or less considered as done)?

+1 to all of this.

This is hard to understand as Gaspar's talk about player skill has absolute no relevance to this Nakor-case we were talking about.

...If you wanted a fair, balanced game where skill is the only factor in victory, you signed up for the wrong game...

I'm a firm believer in being allowed to complain in your own thread that another player got something easier, but personally attacking somebody in a post-game thread half a year later just seems like it's too far for my tastes.

I don't mean any of my posts as personal attacks. I'm sure Nakor is a great guy. My opinion is simply that the way he played the last XX turns in this specific game is not OK no matter how unbalanced or unfair the starting point is. And also that his post in this thread signaled that he does not consider his actions especially wrong, which I consider alarming since we are both playing in PB18 and I don't want that stuff like this happens generally by any other player.

But based on all the negative responses to my opinion it seems that several players consider it fine to quit and dump the civ as soon as one feels like it, which makes me think that participating in further games here is a bad idea. I want to play against thinking humans who try their best. E.g. playing tennis alone is kind of dull when there is nobody on the other side who is hitting the ball back. And because of the long-term nature of this game I don't want to spend X months playing a game, which just dies when one of the players does not feel like putting an effort, because he is disappointed by his lack of success. Perhaps that is utopia?

[scooter]

Fintourist - while your comments were an example of what was in my mind when I wrote that, it definitely wasn't aimed solely at you - you were hardly the only one to be pretty harsh on Nakor.

Also, I do think Gaspar's comments were relevant. Part of skill is the amount of time you invest into a game. When I put in an average amount of time I turn into a very average player. Nakor puts very little time into his turns, because (I would assume) that's what's fun to him. A player who plays like that is very vulnerable at war when turns take 3-4X longer. So I think Gaspar's point about skill stands - I don't think separating out turn time investment from skill is really the same thing. I didn't win this game because I couldn't keep up the same level of time investment for a full 12 months, which in turn meant my decision quality went drastically down the last few months. I didn't get dumber, I just spent less time. For better or for worse, the ability to consistently invest time is a component of skill.

Also, all the little things people cite about Nakor mailing things in are pretty overblown in terms of impact. Like for example - refusing to promote. It was silly and I poked at it in my thread, but overall that had 0 impact on the outcome of the game as a whole. All it did was save us 1-2 Knights at the most, but at the end of the day we're still talking Knights and Amphibious CR Zerks off 4 move galleys vs archers. Even a competent player would have folded rather quickly IMO. Nakor had no prayer without Feudalism, his mailing it in just meant we suffered fewer casualties, but the end result was inevitable. The lack of whipping had a slightly bigger impact in terms of casualties, but we still had overwhelming numbers and targeted whip-ready cities to limit the population he had available. The point being - I believe that if a slightly below average player putting in medium effort had taken over for Nakor on T1 of the war, the outcome wouldn't have been that different. We probably would have had to wait 2-6 extra turns to take the last couple cities (the more marginal cities), OR we would have invested a few hundred extra gold in upgrades, and that's about it. Knights + Hax Zerks on Hax Galleys against archers is the real joke, not the lack of promotion.

[Commodore]

Did you see Commodore's start surrounding land? He had almost no chance of victory from T0,

Hey man, my land was crap and my neighbors were hopeless, but my "start" IE, capital? Testicle-rupturingly good!

[scooter]

As an example - mostly_harmless literally completed wonders while Mackoti was whipping like crazy on his border. Lest you think that was bad luck, I'd point you to our thread where I spent about a dozen posts going "okay Mack added more whips and power, MH still isn't adding any," and THEN the post where I saw he completed the wonders right at the peak of Mack's power spike. It was really obvious, yet he was coasting through turns and just didn't see it or something. I was nooooot happy, and only settled down about it when we got an easy invasion of our own. Imagine the outrage had Nakor built two wonders for us (one of which was very powerful on this map) while we were about to attack him, but that's exactly what happened over there. Personally, I would have traded some extra dead Knights for free Colossus.

The difference between the criticism for Nakor and MH here is that we documented to death the invasion of Nakor, while there's almost no documentation for Mack invading MH. In fact, from glancing, it looks like our thread provided more Mack vs MH coverage than both of those threads combined. I genuinely don't believe one was "worse" than the other, but that's not the vibe you get here, and that's the difference I'm pointing to. (as was Gaspar I'm assuming)

[scooter]

Did you see Commodore's start surrounding land? He had almost no chance of victory from T0,

Hey man, my land was crap and my neighbors were hopeless, but my "start" IE, capital? Testicle-rupturingly good!

Hah too true - yeah I was referring more to your geopolitical situation as a whole than your actual capital, which was awesome.

[mackoti]

never mind.

[pindicator]

Scooter's got some great points but the best one IMO is

Also, I guess I just don't quite follow the rationale behind complaining about fairness (of who got the easiest conquest or whatever) when this game was inherently pretty random and unfair. That was like half the point of this game. Did you see Commodore's start? He had almost no chance of victory from T0, and he's one of the better players here. If you wanted a fair, balanced game where skill is the only factor in victory, you signed up for the wrong game. And despite all the luck, I would still say skill was a major factor here - look at the top 5-6 teams and tell me that wasn't pretty much the exact 5-6 you would have guessed would be there at the end, maybe with the exception of the lack of the Lewwyn/Bigger duo.

I'm a firm believer in being allowed to complain in your own thread that another player got something easier, but personally attacking somebody in a post-game thread half a year later just seems like it's too far for my tastes.

Seriously, all this Nakor vs MH talk is quibbling over details. I personally think mack got the better deal in land acquisition but part of that may be Grass - is - greener bias. But in the end it's irrelevant. If we want highly competitive games where we can crown a winner without any asterisks then we should run more duels and tournaments. These big game, random map events are about as bad a setting as possible for determining who is the best.

But then again, they do allow for the best discussion about it. Just don't let your comments get too personal. Nakor got seriously thrown under the bus on all the arguing about how he should have played, and regardless of your opinion on how he played you should all be able to agree that nobody should be attacked personally for a game like he was.

[Old Harry]

Must. Not. Pour. Oil. On. Fire.

Lets just hope that everyone has learned their lessons for the next game they play.

(My lesson is not to start next to Mackoti again, and yes, starting two civs away is the same as starting next to Mackoti...)

[mackoti]

I apologise for all the hard word i said, in the end is just a game.Sorry nakor and azza,i hope you forgive me.

[MindyMcCready]

As far as I'm concerned, scorched earth should be the only acceptable strategy when you are in a fight you absolutely cannot win.

This is why you don't do scorched earth! :LOL:

So I have invade william

Really funny thing. I was pillaging my cottages and fell into strike. I though "no problem I 'm going to lose a lot of units so -3 gpt isn't a big deal" then william retreat and I have to suicide some units asap!