PBEM XII Map thread

[Selrahc]

Also: Amelanchier of Hippus? WTH?

Defender gives +10% withdrawal rate.
Raider gives Commando.
Horselord gives +10% withdrawal rate and +1 movement to mounted units.

95% withdrawal rates become quite easily possible, although they need a little fiddling around with upgrades, since it requires upgrading a flanking 2 horseman to a horse archer or you'll hit the withdrawal promotion cap of 85%. With a source of mutation it might even be possible to get withdrawal rates of over 100% with light, resulting in a small army of "Loki" Horse Archers.

Put it all together and you've got an incredibly mobile force, that is nearly impossible to take down. Or at least, that's the theory.

Bob was playing almost this combo(Fin rather than raiders) in a PBEM against myself and Sareln. We both found solutions to the problem. In the same way you kill Loki, surrounding the units stops their retreats. I think Sareln was taking advantage of elven mobility through forests and treant defenders, while I relied on Nox Noctis, summons and invisible workers.

We were playing on an Inland sea, and I have to say that the mapscript does this concept no favours at all. There are always some natural chokepoints between civilizations and directions of attack. The more open battlefield of a primarily land map would let the horses be *much* harder to pin down.

[Mardoc]

Ok, I think I'm ready for my first round of criticism!

I like this map type, it generates an awful lot of rivers. Especially handy for FFH.

I tried to give every civ the following as a capital:

• River
  
• Plains hill start
  
• Riverside silks, unforested
  
• Sheep
  
• Wet wheat/corn
  
• 2 floodplains
  

I've barely touched anything else, aside from making sure everyone had copper/iron within close range, and at least 3 mana close.

I just realized, I still need to go back and fix the Emperor-level techs so everyone starts with what they should. Anything else I need to adjust? Fortunately none of these civs has special needs in terms of pig/deer/pearls/etc available.
Grigori:

Sheaim:

Hippus:

Sidar:

Illians:

Clan:

Quest islands:

And if you'd rather look at the save directly: Here it is

[Gaspar]

Just a quick thought, since I'm a bit short of time, but that 3x silk spot next to the clan is crazy good.

Also, you had indicated spreading this out, but the Grigori have all 4 available mana unique features in their starting area, nobody else has any. I like the idea of having them be semi-contested - perhaps spread them out so each one is equidistant between 2 borders (i.e. Standing Stones in the middle on top, Tomb in the middle on the east, Mirror middle west, Pyre middle south) so that each Civ gets a chance at 2 if they expand/negotiate well, or can end up with none if they don't.

I also don't know that I like the inland sea there. I don't know that the apes gimmick is necessary if they're equally contestable by all the teams - in that case, I think I'd rather give the players the opportunity to fight over it rather than tech to something that can take the apes down. I think I'd rather see a little more water with slightly larger islands, and then a unique feature on each. Good is good enough, doesn't need to omgwtfbbqpwn good. Also, I think that's more "natural" than the goody island from heaven.

Just my two cents.

[Mardoc]

I appreciate your comments, Gaspar. I'll probably take them all to heart. I was a bit disappointed by the size of the inland sea, but didn't want to mess with it too much. Maybe I should after all.

As an aside - how does one switch leaders after the map's been created? I thought Amelia had finally made up his mind

Or do I just start over? Now that I know what I *want* to do, redoing it shouldn't be that hard.

[Ichabod]

Some nitpicks about starting positions:

*Corn is better than plains wheat due to agrarianism -1h. I'd give everyone the same resource.

*Sheaim wheat is not irrigated.

*Hippus start doesn't have sheep.

*I'd balance the number of hills, grassland river tiles and riverside tiles as a whole.

I'm always concerned about the capital terrain. A worst/better capital then the others is too unfair, IMO. There's nothing you can do about it. That's why I like to mirrir capitals/give all of them almost the exact same tiles.

[Ilios]

I'll echo Ichabod's comment on mirroring the starting area at least. I'll have a look at the screenshots tonight.

[Ilios]

The Hippus corner seems to be Tundra-less? Maybe just remove tundra everywhere?

[Mardoc]

I went ahead and moved the uniques around as Gaspar suggested. I didn't intend this - but the Mirror ended up near the Illians and the Tomb near the Sheaim; whether they or their neighbor gets ahold of the countering mana may turn out to matter. I also split Yggdrasil off from the other two, and deleted the apes. You're right, *each other* is plenty of threat here.



I swapped everyone's start into an irrigated wheat; I don't want to mirror the starts, due to the strong request for natural, but everyone does have the same tiles from that earlier list now. I hope.

I noticed that horses were mostly missing from the map, except ironically the Hippus had 2!. Added a bunch of horses, therefore. I also plopped in a bunch of marble, although with *this* group of civs I don't expect much wonder-building anyway (or if someone does go for wonders, I don't expect them to keep them ). And on the faint chance it'll matter, gave everyone some mithril too.

I do see sheep in the Hippus start, but I added another floodplain. I moved everyone's settler to the plains hill I'm expecting to be their capital location, although I'm sure at least one of these 6 will choose to move.

I don't want to change the tundra; there is less of it in the north than the south, true, but the sea is slightly biased northward too, so there's also less land for the northerners.

This is probably a good point to mention - I'm sure someone will want to yell at me after the game for the start locations being generally jammed in the corners like they are - this is where the game chose to put everyone, and I kept it that way. If we had ended up on Large, I'd have made an effort to move everyone closer to the center of the map and I suspect distances to rush would have ended up about the same.

Similarly, I'm aware Sareln thinks islands in the sea will be unbalancing toward OO - but with such a puny sea, I'll be shocked if that matters in the slightest to the overall game. Letum Frigus might matter more, but aside from sticking it in the middle there's nothing else to be done about it.

On the subject of puny sea - I noticed that the only sea resources were something like 4 fish/1 clam; I added a lot of seafood. This map is also light on jungle resources - I can only find one banana, and only 2 gems. I'm tempted to just leave them the way they are, though.

The adjusted starts:

Hippus:

Sheaim:

Grigori:

Clan:

Illians:

Sidar:

The worldbuilder file itself: The world

I'll take one more look at this tomorrow, and aim to release it to the players Friday morning.

[Azoth]

Some comments:

1. If every player settles on the plains hill, the Sheaim and Grigori capitals will be adjacent to a one tile lake and thus vulnerable to Tsunami. The Sheaim and Grigori capitals will also be ineligible for the Dereptus Brewery. In both cases, I would remove the fresh water lake and extend the river to the plains hill.
   
2. Given the size of the map, perhaps you should remove the starting settler bonus? Players might be tempted to move away from their corner location and that could seriously affect game balance. The Clan, for instance, could move their settler 3N2W, giving up the plains hill and the Wheat for Gold, Copper, and Iron.
   
3. Have you added guardians to the "Epic Dungeon" Unique Features? Or have you changed your mind about them?
   
4. The Dragon Bones are not terribly imbalanced. +2 commerce at Construction and Trade, together with +1 happy from Ivory at Hunting, is hardly better than a Gold Mine. You could move them into the southern tundra, leaving one Unique feature per island.
   
5. What are the rules for cultural expansion over water? Is it possible for players to found a city on the shores of the inland sea and extend their influence over one of the islands, using Roads and Forts to connect Ice Mana or Fruits of Yggdrasil? Is this a problem?
   
6. Also, is it a problem that only the Illians can build Cottages and Workshops on the Ice tiles surrounding Letum Frigus?
   
7. Since you've bothered to check the Horse, Marble, Mithril distribution, you may as well make sure that Incense and Reagents are reasonably widespread. I wouldn't bother with Gems; and I assume you've already taken care of Copper and Iron. I suppose you can skip Blasting Powder, too.
   

[Mardoc]

If every player settles on the plains hill, the Sheaim and Grigori capitals will be adjacent to a one tile lake and thus vulnerable to Tsunami. The Sheaim and Grigori capitals will also be ineligible for the Dereptus Brewery. In both cases, I would remove the fresh water lake and extend the river to the plains hill.

Good catch. I will certainly do that.

That definitely seems more important than the question of if OO can dominate the inland sea!

Given the size of the map, perhaps you should remove the starting settler bonus? Players might be tempted to move away from their corner location and that could seriously affect game balance. The Clan, for instance, could move their settler 3N2W, giving up the plains hill and the Wheat for Gold, Copper, and Iron.

I go back and forth on this one. On the one hand, Starting Settler bonus is a part of FFH, and a part that I like. On the other, you're right, it makes the game much more variable, and I didn't make any effort to balance the 2nd choice options.

I'm pretty sure PBEM2 had the bonus off, and it ended up being one of the more interesting games, because most people were about at the same level. I think I'm leaning toward turning it off, but I'd be interested in hearing people's reactions first.

Have you added guardians to the "Epic Dungeon" Unique Features? Or have you changed your mind about them?

Yes, each of those has the guardian you suggested (and Maenalus has a turtle knight guardian). I gave each guardian the following promos: Held, Combat II, Drill IV. I figure that means they'll be clearable about the time of tier 2 units, but it will be very difficult to clear them with non-bronze warriors.

The Dragon Bones are not terribly imbalanced. +2 commerce at Construction and Trade, together with +1 happy from Ivory at Hunting, is hardly better than a Gold Mine. You could move them into the southern tundra, leaving one Unique feature per island.

Yes - but Remnants isn't that powerful either, really. I figure Ygg ~= Dragon Bones + Remnants

What are the rules for cultural expansion over water? Is it possible for players to found a city on the shores of the inland sea and extend their influence over one of the islands, using Roads and Forts to connect Ice Mana or Fruits of Yggdrasil? Is this a problem?

I'm pretty sure the only realistic way to do this is to found a coastal city or a city 1 off and pump a LOT of culture in, and of course also to have a presence on the island to get the road in. If you're capable of doing that, you're capable of just planting a city on the island.

It'll also be harder to do with Letum Frigus as that one's not coastal - at best a coastal city could claim it with the third ring

Also, is it a problem that only the Illians can build Cottages and Workshops on the Ice tiles surrounding Letum Frigus?

Yes, probably. I wanted to make it clear that 'this is a special place', but maybe I should back off to tundra, or even make it grassland and simply reveal it to the players.

Since you've bothered to check the Horse, Marble, Mithril distribution, you may as well make sure that Incense and Reagents are reasonably widespread. I wouldn't bother with Gems; and I assume you've already taken care of Copper and Iron. I suppose you can skip Blasting Powder, too.

Will do tonight. I knew there was something strategic I was missing. Yes, I've already checked copper and iron; there's now something like 10 coppers on the map, at least one within 2nd ring city of each civ, and at least an iron for everyone in their 'box', although I wasn't as careful about putting these close.


Also, I've thought more about Ilios/Ichabod's comments on starting areas - yeah, I'll spend more time on these tonight as well, getting them closer to parity or maybe even identical tiles.